Computer Audio: confusing, complicated, & INCONVENIENT. About MUSIC or inner nerd?

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

So it seems only the folks who are "nerds" who have overcome the learning curve - and I mean that it a respectful way, as in nerds ruling the world - don't find Computer Audio confusing. The rest will either listen to a friends and get a set up just like it, or buy a professional server. Or more likely - will just stick with a CD player.

even though i'm not a techie, and i have my Son assist me with this stuff....i'd say that if one wanted to have a server based digital music library and do dsd over USB it is quite doable with some perseverence. i've had to do enough at certain times that i can see it's not rocket science.

a few years ago it did require more actual specialized knowledge than it does now.

optimizing your server for latency is maybe the most difficult part but you can find information on that if you look.

even though i'm as analog centric as anyone here, using a server to access music is such a dream way to go....it's worth some frustration to figure it out.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Gentlemen, fascinating discussion! Don't want to interrupt your passionate discussions, but I would appreciate if someone could please help answer the following few questions:

- I'm assuming it is best to use a dedicated computer - a Windows laptop or a Mac Mini. What are the advantages of using Mac vs. Windows?
- How do you quiet down the processing on your computer so it minimizes the contention for resources and allows the music processing to be the primary activity? Is it easier on a Mac or on a Windows machine?
- What is the best software to rip your digital, without loss? on Mac? on Windows?
- What's the difference between inputs / outputs: USB, SPDIF, etc.? How does one know which implementation will sound best with what DAC?
- Is upsampling a good thing? Why?

Thanks!

This is where it can get every bit as complicated as you want it to be. Or not.

I'd pick a Mac, if you like your organization options in iTunes, because all of the hassles talked about early in this thread disappear when using iTunes on a Mac. Like so many things Apple, stay within their universe and it all works beautifully. If you don't like something about iTunes, it's going to be a lot more trouble, I'm afraid.

Amir posted jitter measurements from a bog-standard laptop in another thread that I can't seem to find recently. They were stellar by any standard. Noise? Seek good galvanic isolation from the computer in a digital format converter or DAC. Some will say that noise gets through anyway. Believe your ears. Or measure. Noise is not a mystery; it is quantifiable.

The software that has functional error correction. Really. This one is not hard. Will some upgraded software rip faster? Sure. But iTunes will check and re-check until the data on the hard drive perfectly matches the data on the optical disc. Better still, it will re-read errors on the optical disc, looking for the underlying data and often eliminate, on your hard drive, errors on your CDs. iTunes is not special in this regard. All decent software does the same thing.

SPDIF has somewhat higher jitter than good USB, but I'm not convinced the difference is typically audible. The real bad boy is HDMI. USB is a common choice these days.

Tim

 

[Vincent Kars]

My point of view has always been that mastering file based audio and switching to another OS is for masochist only.
After “upgrading” to Win8 above statement needs some nuance

I have never seen any convincing evidence that one OS is superior to the other sound quality wise.

I have an iMac, running Win8.
After getting Win up and running I remembered that 4 years ago I did the same and at that time concluded not to do it again.
I was right.

Anyway, on Win there are tricks like WASAPI or ASIO to bypass the OS audio. In the Mac world you see the same. You can use ASIO or “integer mode”.

A very simple way to get rid of unnecessary processes is to deinstall software.
Another option is (in Win) to open the taskmanager and kill manually (you don’t destroy your configuration by doing it this way).
Most processes sit in memory waiting so do nothing.
Killing them won’t help you sound quality wise.
An overrated issue IMHO.

Ripping.
Any ripper supporting accurate rip. It simply tells you the likelihood of your rip being perfect. dBpoweramp on Win, XLD on Mac

Protocols
USB/SPDIF pretty much dependent on the implementation on both sides.
I prefer an asynchronous protocol but if your DAC is good in rejecting input jitter, you might wonder if it matters.

Upsampling.
It is possible (simply because a PC has much more power) that upsamling on a PC beats upsamlping by the DAC. Again this is completely dependent on the implementation.

 

[dallasjustice]

Each one of your questions could a separate thread. You need to tell us who you are:

Do you enjoy tweaking to the point where you are constantly asking yourself "I think I just heard something?" or
Are you the type of guy that just wants to "set it and forget it?"

What are your objective? Do you just want ease use? Do you need video? Do you need multi-channel. Which DAC will you be using with the computer?

Mac vs. Windows is personal preference and nothing more. Mac is much easier to use; you don't need to install drivers. The OS doesn't have a sound. However, Windows does let you tweak the hardware much more than Mac. Are you a tweaker or just want easy great sounding playback? I've never used a vortexbox, but I bet it's the easiest to use but I am not sure your DAC will have a compatible driver for it. I don't know about that.

99.9% of the sound you hear in a computer based system is determined by the design of the DAC. The only major improvements in sound derived from software come from DSP. Bitperfect playback software contributes nothing to sound quality, assuming you've correctly setup your DAC with the computer. Lots of people have claimed extra processes hurt the sound. There's never been any evidence shown to support that and it makes no logical sense why that would be the case. As long as you don't have audible dropouts, it won't matter about other processes on the computer, IMO.

Most DACs upsample inside the DAC, so that would just depend upon which DAC you own or want to use. If it's a good DAC, I don't see any reason to upsample on the server side.

Michael.

Gentlemen, fascinating discussion! Don't want to interrupt your passionate discussions, but I would appreciate if someone could please help answer the following few questions:

- I'm assuming it is best to use a dedicated computer - a Windows laptop or a Mac Mini. What are the advantages of using Mac vs. Windows?
- How do you quiet down the processing on your computer so it minimizes the contention for resources and allows the music processing to be the primary activity? Is it easier on a Mac or on a Windows machine?
- What is the best software to rip your digital, without loss? on Mac? on Windows?
- What's the difference between inputs / outputs: USB, SPDIF, etc.? How does one know which implementation will sound best with what DAC?
- Is upsampling a good thing? Why?

Thanks!

 

[Vincent Kars]

Bitperfect playback software contributes nothing to sound quality, assuming you've correctly setup your DAC with the computer.

Sorry but I don’t understand this statement.
Bit perfect playback is all about playing the file without the OS audio stack meddling with it.

You can’t setup your DAC properly as it can only accept the input as is.
You can setup your PC properly, don’t meddle with the bits as send to the DAC

 

[rbbert]

...The software that has functional error correction. Really. This one is not hard. Will some upgraded software rip faster? Sure. But iTunes will check and re-check until the data on the hard drive perfectly matches the data on the optical disc. Better still, it will re-read errors on the optical disc, looking for the underlying data and often eliminate, on your hard drive, errors on your CDs. iTunes is not special in this regard. All decent software does the same thing....

Tim

I admit to not keeping up with the last few update specs for iTunes, but this was not true as of about a year ago, nor will iTunes use AccurateRip's database (of that I am still sure). XLD will rip into iTunes, uses the same database for auto-tagging, is faster for the same accuracy, will rip to any format including FLAC or WAV, uses the AccurateRip database, and of course it's freeware.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I admit to not keeping up with the last few update specs for iTunes, but this was not true as of about a year ago, nor will iTunes use AccurateRip's database (of that I am still sure). XLD will rip into iTunes, uses the same database for auto-tagging, is faster for the same accuracy, will rip to any format including FLAC or WAV, uses the AccurateRip database, and of course it's freeware.

iTunes absolutely had error correction a year ago. iTunes healed errors on CDs in the process of ripping them to my hard drive a few years ago. It does not use AccurateRip's database, and while I'm sure that's a pretty good idea, I've ripped more than 1000 CDs with only a couple of errors. iTunes has healed more errors than it has generated in ripping those CDs. I'm sure XLD is great software -- faster, safer, more format flexible -- but in my experience it's not necessary. If you're looking for simplicity, I'd stick with iTunes. YMMV.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

I find interesting how quickly those into analog forget how challenging tuning a table can be.. ..

You should get a SME 30 with a SMEV with Sumiko Palo Santos cartridge - less than 30 minutes setup, even for non experts, and immediate SOTA performance without any need for tweaking.

 

[FrantzM]

You should get a SME 30 with a SMEV with Sumiko Palo Santos cartridge - less than 30 minutes setup, even for non experts, and immediate SOTA performance without any need for tweaking.

Ok.. Then same with any PC with iTunes or Foobar or DbPoweramp or ...

Now What audiophile would not attempt to tweak? ...

 

[rbbert]

...If you're looking for simplicity, I'd stick with iTunes. YMMV.

Tim

Try XLD, the learning curve is short. I predict that if you do (and you set your preferences for it to load when a CD is inserted) you won't use iTunes for ripping anymore...

 

[marty]

Maybe we need to do a DSP intervention on me. A bunch of you digit heads can come to my house, strap me down to my listening chair while you install a DSP system and calibrate my room and force me to listen to the results so I can see the error of my ways and give up analog as I know it in order to make my room better.

MEP, I may not agree with everything you say but I gotta hand it to you on this one- it cracked me up. Very funny. (Actually, maybe not such a bad idea now that I think about it! )

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Try XLD, the learning curve is short. I predict that if you do (and you set your preferences for it to load when a CD is inserted) you won't use iTunes for ripping anymore...

Sounds good. I'll give it a try.

Tim

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Maybe we need to do a DSP intervention on me. A bunch of you digit heads can come to my house, strap me down to my listening chair while you install a DSP system and calibrate my room and force me to listen to the results so I can see the error of my ways and give up analog as I know it in order to make my room better.

MEP, I may not agree with everything you say but I gotta hand it to you on this one- it cracked me up. Very funny. (Actually, maybe not such a bad idea now that I think about it! )

I'll bring the strippers!

 

[mep]

MEP, I may not agree with everything you say but I gotta hand it to you on this one- it cracked me up. Very funny. (Actually, maybe not such a bad idea now that I think about it! )

Marty-I'm glad you saw some humor in it. There are lots of people who use analog as their primary source that wouldn't contemplate converting their analog signal to digital. I made the mistake of opening my mouth and was given a group beat down for it. What struck me as ironic and hypocritical was the most vocal critics that called me narrow minded and prejudiced don't own DSP and have no plans to buy it and use it in their system. Even when some of them are tailor made customers because they only listen to digital and some of them don't even listen to hi-rez. One of the people who was trying to dish out the most severe beating to me for not wanting to hear DSP in my system before making up my mind that I don't want to convert my analog to digital (and he only listens to digital) finally confessed after being pressed by me on why he doesn't have DSP in his system that his system sounded good enough and he didn't feel he needed DSP. If people don't see the irony in that attack, they need to get out their dictionary and look up irony.

 

[mep]

I'll bring the strippers!

Cool! You are invited.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Cool! You are invited.

I think Mark was just trying to up his post total to compete with Deathstar.

 

[dallasjustice]

I know this may stir the pot. But I think it's relevant and a legit question:
How does one know they can't possible benefit from DSP if they've never tried it in their own system?

At least a couple on this thread have claimed their systems are basically too good to benefit from DSP. I can't dispute that. But I don't think many, if any, of those folks have tested it in their systems. Am I wrong? I am not trying to help Mark out here and I certainly don't agree with him. I just think it would be folly to assume that folks like Marty don't already have a world class system without DSP. Sorry, I've just never heard a system that couldn't have better bass.

 

[rbbert]

Marty-I'm glad you saw some humor in it. There are lots of people who use analog as their primary source that wouldn't contemplate converting their analog signal to digital. I made the mistake of opening my mouth and was given a group beat down for it. What struck me as ironic and hypocritical was the most vocal critics that called me narrow minded and prejudiced don't own DSP and have no plans to buy it and use it in their system. Even when some of them are tailor made customers because they only listen to digital and some of them don't even listen to hi-rez. One of the people who was trying to dish out the most severe beating to me for not wanting to hear DSP in my system before making te up my mind that I don't want to convert my analog to digital (and he only listens to digital) finally confessed after being pressed by me on why he doesn't have DSP in his system that his system sounded good enough and he didn't feel he needed DSP. If people don't see the irony in that attack, they need to get out their dictionary and look up irony.

Despite it having been posted multiple times in multiple ways by multiple people, you persist in refusing to understand? For one thing, your idea of "tailor made customers" for DSP is just that, your idea. One of the most persistent advocates for DSP was the late Brian Chaney of VMPS, who rarely listened to anything digitally sourced except when doing his "live vs. recorded" demos (which were DSD or 24/96 and 24/192 PCM). The posters here who listen primarily or exclusively to digital sources who don't have DSP aren't rejecting it out of hand for any preconceived notions (unlike you), they just haven't heard a convincing enough demonstration or haven't felt a need to try DSP/DRC

 

[Bruce B]

You should get a SME 30 with a SMEV with Sumiko Palo Santos cartridge - less than 30 minutes setup, even for non experts, and immediate SOTA performance without any need for tweaking.

+1

 

[mep]

Despite it having been posted multiple times in multiple ways by multiple people, you persist in refusing to understand? For one thing, your idea of "tailor made customers" for DSP is just that, your idea. One of the most persistent advocates for DSP was the late Brian Chaney of VMPS, who rarely listened to anything digitally sourced except when doing his "live vs. recorded" demos (which were DSD or 24/96 and 24/192 PCM). The posters here who listen primarily or exclusively to digital sources who don't have DSP aren't rejecting it out of hand for any preconceived notions (unlike you), they just haven't heard a convincing enough demonstration or haven't felt a need to try DSP/DRC

Re-read what you just wrote and think about it. I refuse to understand what exactly? My reason for not wanting DSP in my system is firmly grounded in the fact that I don't want to convert my analog signals to digital. Other people who "haven't felt a need to try it" and yet are hypocritical enough to chastise me for not wanting to try it are on the path to righteousness? Come on man.