Constant Power

[Atmasphere]

In this case, that's exactly the way it works. I'm not speculating that zero feedback amps don't sound different from, or even better than mine. All I'm saying is that the grievous symptoms of negative feedback described in this, and quite a few other conversations, don't exist in my current systems. Are they "brighter" than a system with one of Ralph's amps? Maybe. Without a measurable difference to determine which is more faithful to the input signal, that would just be a matter of taste and perception anyway. But according to the conventional audiophile wisdom (CAW), I'm supposed to be irritated, experiencing fatigue, driven to turn the volume down, driven from the room. None of that is happening. I listen happily for hours on end.

That's all I'm saying. If I listened to my actives powered by four zero-feedback tube amps, I may like them better. Or not. But it wouldn't change any of the above.
Tim

This is definitely one of those things that you don't or can't know until you've actually tried it. Right now- you are happy and maybe that is for the better, not finding out what is possible. FWIW though its a pretty good bet that your current speakers are not well-suited for zero feedback amps (with the possible exception of the Ayre).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This is definitely one of those things that you don't or can't know until you've actually tried it. Right now- you are happy and maybe that is for the better, not finding out what is possible. FWIW though its a pretty good bet that your current speakers are not well-suited for zero feedback amps (with the possible exception of the Ayre).

I can't know whether or not my system is making me tired, forcing me to turn down the volume or driving me from the room without listening to your amps? Please. You guys need to actually read the posts you're responding to instead of responding to the post you assume I wrote.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

]I can't know whether or not my system is making me tired, forcing me to turn down the volume or driving me from the room without listening to your amps?[/I] Please. You guys need to actually read the posts you're responding to instead of responding to the post you assume I wrote.

Tim

Yes, and likewise. maybe reread what I wrote?? The comment in bold is not what I said. I said you can't know, and that you are happy right now.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, and likewise. maybe reread what I wrote?? The comment in bold is not what I said. I said you can't know, and that you are happy right now.

Actually you said that I was happy right now, but if you mispoke, you've crossed the line into even more ridiculous and irrelevant territory -- now you seem to be saying I can't even know if I'm enjoying myself without hearing your amps. There's another member here with similar logic. He will not allow that anyone has a legitimate frame of reference for system quality unless they have heard his system. There's no point in carrying on a conversation with anyone with such a narrowly focused point of view.

I'm sure you design and build nice amps. Enjoy them.

Tim

 

[egidius]

TONE control

Actually you said that I was happy right now, but if you mispoke, you've crossed the line into even more ridiculous and irrelevant territory -- now you seem to be saying I can't even know if I'm enjoying myself without hearing your amps. There's another member here with similar logic. He will not allow that anyone has a legitimate frame of reference for system quality unless they have heard his system. There's no point in carrying on a conversation with anyone with such a narrowly focused point of view.

I'm sure you design and build nice amps. Enjoy them.

Tim

PLEASE - I really can't stand your tone. Can somebody implement a tone control, like anger down or laughter up?
Hearing those words with actual voices would reveal such bad manners.
I am not really english, but sometimes I feel I have learned to be one.
It is actually perfectly interesting threads that go haywire like that.

 

[Atmasphere]

Actually you said that I was happy right now, but if you mispoke, you've crossed the line into even more ridiculous and irrelevant territory -- now you seem to be saying I can't even know if I'm enjoying myself without hearing your amps. There's another member here with similar logic. He will not allow that anyone has a legitimate frame of reference for system quality unless they have heard his system. There's no point in carrying on a conversation with anyone with such a narrowly focused point of view.

I'm sure you design and build nice amps. Enjoy them.
Tim

Tim, you seem to be creating an argument that differs from mine, then knocking your created argument down as if it was actually what I said. This type of dismissal is a Logical Fallacy known as a Strawman. Since it is a logical fallacy, it is also false as an argument by definition.

If you read what I said, you will see that I said nothing about my amps. Further, I never impugned you that have to hear my system... IMO you are reacting to stuff that I never said nor meant.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

PLEASE - I really can't stand your tone. Can somebody implement a tone control, like anger down or laughter up?
Hearing those words with actual voices would reveal such bad manners.
I am not really english, but sometimes I feel I have learned to be one.
It is actually perfectly interesting threads that go haywire like that.

I'm not angry, but I am a bit frustrated. I'm being told, on one hand, that the symptoms of the world's dominant amplifier technology are fatigue, excessive brightness (I'm assuming it must be excessive if the following applies...) to the point that listening to it at any length will cause me to want to turn it down or shut it off. When I report that I'm experiencing none of that, the affect, formerly so marked that it would make me want to stop listening to music, suddenly becomes subtle enough that I wouldn't know it was there at all if I didn't have a zero feedback system to compare it to.

Pardon my frustration, but seriously, it can't be both. It's either so subtle that I won't be able to recognize the diffence between the colors unless I'm looking at both of them (thought I'd try a non-automotive analogy), or it is so glaring I can hardly stand to look at my color for more than a few moments without running from the room.

I suspect that the truth is that the difference between well-designed amps with and without negative feedback is very subtle, and which design is better is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Tim

 

[egidius]

Thank you for that! I appreciate it. egidius

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, you seem to be creating an argument that differs from mine, then knocking your created argument down as if it was actually what I said. This type of dismissal is a Logical Fallacy known as a Strawman. Since it is a logical fallacy, it is also false as an argument by definition.

If you read what I said, you will see that I said nothing about my amps. Further, I never impugned you that have to hear my system... IMO you are reacting to stuff that I never said nor meant.

Fair enough. I certainly don't want to make any straw man arguments.

So let me understand more clearly what you are actually saying. You are saying that negative feedback amps are brighter, yes? And you did say that they raise the perceived volume? And that one good measure was to know at what level they "drive you from the room?" (at what distance do you measure sound levels?) And you did say that this (assumption: the absence of negative feedback) is one of those things I can't know unless I've eperienced it, correct? So...negative feedback = bright, loud, driving me from the room at high volume (which is relative to a lot of things, not just dbs). But I can't judge if it is bright, loud, driving me from the room unless I've heard a zero negative feedback sysstem.

I'm really not sure what I'm missing except for a meter. And I'm not sure if it matters if those were 95 db peaks or 112. I didn't seem too loud. Then I discovered that it was VERY loud relative to my normal listening levels. But that is not a sufficient experience unless I have a zero negative feedback system to compare it to.

Where am I misunderstanding?

Tim

 

[KeithR]

Keith,

in your current list of equipment, although I can not find the schematic for your pre-amp, for sure you power amp has feedback. My professional experience is that either type can and do "sound" fine, my mileage varies!

My Quad II 40s use a small bit of feedback, but run in Class A which helps things and is a very simple design (from the 50s)- which as JA's measurements show on the Classics are quite good to this day. I actually sold them recently- I prefer my Valvet Class A SS monos, which happen to be a feedback-free design. I've also demo'd the Ayre and Dart recently which eschew the use of negative feedback. I really like both, though prefer the more expensive Dart.

My Valvet preamp is a no feedback design as well.

 

[KeithR]

In this case, that's exactly the way it works. I'm not speculating that zero feedback amps don't sound different from, or even better than mine. All I'm saying is that the grievous symptoms of negative feedback described in this, and quite a few other conversations, don't exist in my current systems. Are they "brighter" than a system with one of Ralph's amps? Maybe. Without a measurable difference to determine which is more faithful to the input signal, that would just be a matter of taste and perception anyway. But according to the conventional audiophile wisdom (CAW), I'm supposed to be irritated, experiencing fatigue, driven to turn the volume down, driven from the room. None of that is happening. I listen happily for hours on end.

That's all I'm saying. If I listened to my actives powered by four zero-feedback tube amps, I may like them better. Or not. But it wouldn't change any of the above.

Tim

Tim- you are insulting the rest of us subtlety, so I'm stepping away from this thread. Tim's got the golden ears (how ironic)!

you've ignored all of my posts on this thread related to measurements, SS amps, Pass's writeup etc. so there is nothing to argue with you about. you refuse to recognize what's going on or read anything posted and critique it, and then exaggerate our words (irritated, fatigue, driven from the room etc) to draw your conclusion based on your ears and tell us we're crazy.

pardon me, but I don't have the narrow-minded vision. in fact, i've had 15 amps in three years in my condo to come up with my own conclusions. but i'm done arguing with a brick wall whose only response is "i can't hear it" and refuses to even do a comparison because of preconditioned beliefs. enjoy thinking a QSC is as good as a DarTZeel.

over and out,

KeithR

 

[mauidan]

My Quad II 40s use a small bit of feedback, but run in Class A which helps things and is a very simple design (from the 50s)- which as JA's measurements show on the Classics are quite good to this day. I actually sold them recently- I prefer my Valvet Class A SS monos, which happen to be a feedback-free design. I've also demo'd the Ayre and Dart recently which eschew the use of negative feedback. I really like both, though prefer the more expensive Dart.

My Valvet preamp is a no feedback design as well.

Have you heard the Aesthetix Atlas Signature?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim- you are insulting the rest of us subtlety, so I'm stepping away from this thread. Tim's got the golden ears (how ironic)!

you've ignored all of my posts on this thread related to measurements, SS amps, Pass's writeup etc. so there is nothing to argue with you about. you refuse to recognize what's going on or read anything posted and critique it, and then exaggerate our words (irritated, fatigue, driven from the room etc) to draw your conclusion based on your ears and tell us we're crazy.

pardon me, but I don't have the narrow-minded vision. in fact, i've had 15 amps in three years in my condo to come up with my own conclusions. but i'm done arguing with a brick wall whose only response is "i can't hear it" and refuses to even do a comparison because of preconditioned beliefs. enjoy thinking a QSC is as good as a DarTZeel.

over and out,

KeithR

I've reported my listening experience, unsupported by SPL measurements to verify what "loud" is. How is that an insult to anyone? And I haven't ignored your posts Keith, they're just not relevant. I'm supposed to hear irritatingly bright distortion, suffer fatigue, and be driven from the room by the volume at some undefined point in my listening. None of the above has happened. And I don't recall that it has been reported by the overwhelming majority of people using amps with negative feedback. Am I simply supposed to ignore that because you found a write-up by Pass? And by the way, none of the above is even remotely related to a QSC being as good as a DarTZeel, though I assume one of those 15 amps in 3 years was a QSC?

I trust my ears, and it is insulting. Wow. You're right. You could cut the irony with a knife.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

Fair enough. I certainly don't want to make any straw man arguments.

So let me understand more clearly what you are actually saying. You are saying that negative feedback amps are brighter, yes? And you did say that they raise the perceived volume? And that one good measure was to know at what level they "drive you from the room?" (at what distance do you measure sound levels?) And you did say that this (assumption: the absence of negative feedback) is one of those things I can't know unless I've eperienced it, correct? So...negative feedback = bright, loud, driving me from the room at high volume (which is relative to a lot of things, not just dbs). But I can't judge if it is bright, loud, driving me from the room unless I've heard a zero negative feedback sysstem.

I'm really not sure what I'm missing except for a meter. And I'm not sure if it matters if those were 95 db peaks or 112. I didn't seem too loud. Then I discovered that it was VERY loud relative to my normal listening levels. But that is not a sufficient experience unless I have a zero negative feedback system to compare it to.

Where am I misunderstanding?

Tim

I think you got it right this time, and so now we come back to wondering how loud you are actually playing the system. I suspect it is not actually playing as loud as you think. That is why I was saying a measurement would sort it out.

Put another way, if you are saying it is 'really loud' and you are only getting peaks of 95 db, then we can conclude that you are experiencing the phenomena. Subjectively, if odd orders are not a problem you will find no upper limit where it sounds 'too loud'. But I like a measurement.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I don't want to go on and on about feedback, but one needs to be very clear about what type is in use, hi end audio designers consider not using "global feedback" as being feedback free designs. DART does use feedback, as much as my Hafler amps in one area, its just not called "global feedback". I would just say that while we have prefernces for amps, as you just said above, the reality is its not the feedback that makes or breaks its "sound". Feedback does indeed though, introduce more extended harmonics and thus the overall harmonic spray of the amp is differenet, but all amps have different harmonic sprays.

Tom, please 'splain "harmonic spray." Talk real slow.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

Tom, please 'splain "harmonic spray." Talk real slow.

Tim

I'm gonna let Tom do it, but FWIW Norman Crowhurst wrote about this some 55 years ago.

 

[KeithR]

I trust my ears, and it is insulting. Wow. You're right. You could cut the irony with a knife.

Tim

You haven't listened to anything and don't care. That's the point. Again, twisting my words.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think you got it right this time, and so now we come back to wondering how loud you are actually playing the system. I suspect it is not actually playing as loud as you think. That is why I was saying a measurement would sort it out.

Put another way, if you are saying it is 'really loud' and you are only getting peaks of 95 db, then we can conclude that you are experiencing the phenomena. Subjectively, if odd orders are not a problem you will find no upper limit where it sounds 'too loud'. But I like a measurement.

Measure from the listening position?

Tim

 

[mep]

Measure from the listening position?

Tim

Yep.

 

[theguesswho]

Atmasphere said to Phelonious Ponk, "I think you got it right this time, and so now we come back to wondering how loud you are actually playing the system. I suspect it is not actually playing as loud as you think. That is why I was saying a measurement would sort it out.
Put another way, if you are saying it is 'really loud' and you are only getting peaks of 95 db, then we can conclude that you are experiencing the phenomena. Subjectively, if odd orders are not a problem you will find no upper limit where it sounds 'too loud'. But I like a measurement."

On 8/2 Atmasphere said, "I don't have a meter"

Ralph, why does Tim need a meter to tell how loud his system is when you don't even own one, how do you know how loud you are listening?

Wendell