Coralstone Diamond on Koetsu arm

[Ron Resnick]

Haha.

No experience with FR. I was told that the Ikeda is the best new production arm for Koetsu. I don't doubt the FR 66 might sound better but haven't heard it. I had a Blue Lace on my Ikeda and can confidently say it was a good match. Also used it with an Arche headshell and Furutech silver leads.

I've owned a Blue Lace previously but stupidly sold it to help fund my Artisan Fidelity project. I would have just sold my other tables had I known that the 301 was going to end up being my favorite. I have heard that the blue lace is very similar with it being a bit more neutral than the Coral. I need a bit of extra texture and weight since my system is a tad lean.

I currently have an Ear 868PL (I love Ear) with a quad set of Amperex 7308s. I will move to the 912 next year.

Very interesting! I have heard consistently the same suggestion about the difference between the Blue Lace and the Coralstone -- theoretically because the Blue Lace stone is a bit harder (on the hardness scale) than the Coralstone stone.

You would have to hear the Ikeda versus the FR for youself. (I have to take this advice for myself, too.)

I know shakti and bonzo75 agree that the undamped stainless steel armwand on the FR-66S gives the Koetsu energy and life, but one audiophile's "energy" and "life" can be another audiophile's "over-detailed" and "analytical" so, as MikeL and bonzo75 and Peter A write, we have to make these comparisons for ourselves.

 

[bonzo75]

When many people generalize Coralstone's sonic signature almost uniformly and then Bonzo and shakti said that when use together with the FR arm the combo could break the typical sonic signature of Coral, I cant escape to think this arm is not so neutral. The 3012 might be just a safer choice because David uses it for all carts he has meaning he must find it to be very neutral. When I choose an arm one of my top priority is neutrality sothat I can use with different carts.

Just a thought.
Tang

Maybe a neutral arm on a colored cart is not a good match?

 

[bonzo75]

https://www.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=1106360&highlight=

 

[Ron Resnick]

https://www.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=1106360&highlight=

Interesting, and it unfortunately raises the issue of sample-to-sample variation of a particular model exceeding the differences between different models, which is extremely disappointing and totally unacceptable in terms of quality control.

On the subjective front I personally have found even the Lyra Atlas too bright for me each of the several times I heard it in various systems.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Interesting, and it unfortunately raises the issue of sample-to-sample variation of a particular model exceeding the differences between different models, which is extremely disappointing and totally unacceptable in terms of quality control.

On the subjective front I personally have found even the Lyra Atlas too bright for me each of the several times I heard it in various systems.

owned 7 different vdH Colibi's, 3 of which were supposedly the same model. each had a different length cantilever, a slightly different way in which it was not properly aligned, and each sounded different.

all sounded quite good to very fine (in spite of the obvious variations), and one was magical. the magical one I used for 4 years on my Rockport, then I broke it and tried to find that same magic again but could not.

so inconsistencies cuts both ways. it can result in something truly special, but also frustrations.

and I don't believe that Arnie's (Mr. vdH) intentions with the Colibri's was that they should be perfectly consistent. they are all 'works of art' and what they are. and buying the Colibri one bought into that perspective.

 

[853guy]

When many people generalize Coralstone's sonic signature almost uniformly and then Bonzo and shakti said that when use together with the FR arm the combo could break the typical sonic signature of Coral, I cant escape to think this arm is not so neutral. The 3012 might be just a safer choice because David uses it for all carts he has meaning he must find it to be very neutral. When I choose an arm one of my top priority is neutrality sothat I can use with different carts.

Just a thought.

Maybe a neutral arm on a colored cart is not a good match?

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is".
-Yogi Berra

Best!

853guy

 

[advanced101]

Anyone have thoughts on the ideal headshell for a Coralstone on an Ikeda Arm? Arche vs the Carbon Schick Headshell?

 

[mullard88]

I used a Koetsu head shell to mount my coralstone on my Ikeda tonearm.

 

[mullard88]

Tango, I just saw the picture of your turntables. They are beautiful! You have a wonderful collection of turntables!

 

[Tango]

Tango, I just saw the picture of your turntables. They are beautiful! You have a wonderful collection of turntables!

Thank you sir. TTs are like Ferrari, Lambo, Aston Martin to me.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

Oh I forgot to say one thing about Coralstone.
Of the cartridges I own, the Coral portrays the best sense of ambient.

Tang

 

[ddk]

When many people generalize Coralstone's sonic signature almost uniformly and then Bonzo and shakti said that when use together with the FR arm the combo could break the typical sonic signature of Coral, I cant escape to think this arm is not so neutral. The 3012 might be just a safer choice because David uses it for all carts he has meaning he must find it to be very neutral. When I choose an arm one of my top priority is neutrality sothat I can use with different carts.

Just a thought.
Tang

You're correct about FR and specially S type with silver wiring but the real elephant in shakti's system are the NBS cabling, in all my years in audio I've never come across any wires as colored as NBS. Some people like them but all their qualities are additive, big body, big stage, huge bass, very large scale, overly dark backgrounds, etc. all this can be very impressive initially but fatiguing over time. IME with NBS wires it's impossible to differentiate between their heavy contributions and real sound of any component in that system.

No disrespect Ked but not knowing about NBS puts you at a disadvantage in assessing things in Juergen's system.

david

 

[bonzo75]

But his sound is not like that when you switch carts or TTs or digital. And while sets and Zingalis have a color, the difference can be seen on class D+ YG keeping the arm and cart the same. Overall, effects can be compared through various permutations and combinations

 

[ddk]

But his sound is not like that when you switch carts or TTs or digital. And while sets and Zingalis have a color, the difference can be seen on class D+ YG keeping the arm and cart the same. Overall, effects can be compared through various permutations and combinations

Yes but if he's using NBS in all those systems the differences you're hearing is like a cup of tea with a lot of sugar or coffee with a lot of sugar, different but also always sweet.
david

 

[bonzo75]

Yes but if he's using NBS in all those systems the differences you're hearing is like a cup of tea with a lot of sugar or coffee with a lot of sugar, different but also always sweet.
david

No idea about the NBS and effects, but the differences between the two carts and the two systems were quite large. As such, I am not giving an overall system impression anyway but that this was the only system I enjoyed a koetsu in, and that the attributes heard by isolating the koetsu set up were quite different to other koetsu set ups.

 

[Tango]

..but that this was the only system I enjoyed a koetsu in, and that the attributes heard by isolating the koetsu set up were quite different to other koetsu set ups.

The rating agency is very difficult to please .

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

The rating agency is very difficult to please .

Tang

Well a few more to go. Gian said Italian distributors and other have compared Ikeda etc and prefer the Koetsu arm - which Gian has (and which, coincidentally is undamped). So will get get to hear that. And at some point will buy an used Koetsu black - previous experience burned my fingers lol - to try it in SAEC and Graham, should be fun.

Also Mik who owns like 75 Koetsus loves the diamond cantilevers, so maybe that's the best buy, but too expensive. Otherwise a black for an alternate sound.

 

[advanced101]

Very interesting! I have heard consistently the same suggestion about the difference between the Blue Lace and the Coralstone -- theoretically because the Blue Lace stone is a bit harder (on the hardness scale) than the Coralstone stone.

You would have to hear the Ikeda versus the FR for youself. (I have to take this advice for myself, too.)

I know shakti and bonzo75 agree that the undamped stainless steel armwand on the FR-66S gives the Koetsu energy and life, but one audiophile's "energy" and "life" can be another audiophile's "over-detailed" and "analytical" so, as MikeL and bonzo75 and Peter A write, we have to make these comparisons for ourselves.

After spending an hour on the phone with my dealer (Well known but don't want to Quote him since I didn't ask permission) I changed my order to a Blue Lace. My dealer who sells quite a few Koetsus then installs and listens believes they changed the Blue Lace a couple years ago without making it public. He believes that they changed the Blue Lace to sound more like the Coralstone (Presence, tonality, texture, etc) with just a bit more detail and wider soundstage. Since he sold me the Blue Lace at nearly the Coralstone price and had neither in stock I can't say he wanted to up sell.

I also asked him about the FR-66S vs Ikeda 407. He sells refurbished FR-66S. He believes that a perfect condition FR-66S is slightly better for Koetsus than the Ikeda 407. He says the problem is finding one that hasn't been terribly modified or one where the bearing isn't damaged to some degree. He recommended that I stay with the Ikeda and have it re-wired as an upgrade.

 

[shakti]

@ddk
for obvious reasons the listening session with Kedar was done without NBS cables in the signal path. One NBS Black label III powerchord is still in use (in front of the powersplitter for the digital ) but not for analogue. Actual the most cables are just pure copper from a small cable manufacturer in Germany , some others are XLO signature ( like the speakercables)

I tried different headshells on the Ikeda 407. I was not satisfied with any headshell from wood or with wood as damping add on (like the Jelco/Koetsu headshell). I had positive results with yamamoto graphite and titanium headshells, but many carts are not heavy enough to balance the graphite version, as the Ikeda counterweight is very heavy.

Finally I have to say, that the original Ikeda headshell is not too bad and as the chrome look fits perfectly to the arm, I decided to use the original one. I love the look & style & feel of the Ikeda 407.

The „best“ headshell might be the TechDas Titanium version, as Nishikawa san was so proud to explain to me the unique Titanium Design he (and his team) developed. But I never tried it, the headshell is very (too) expensive in Germany.

To make my personal comparisons of „undamped“ tonearm and „damped“ tonearm versions more clear to me, I bought a FR64fx version.

So from next week onwards I can compare the solidsteel FR64s and the aluminium FR64fx. Both arms are identical, apart from the used material and the damping, which goes along the applied design with this material. From that point of view, the FR64/66fx tonearms are more close to the Ikeda tonearms than the former FR64/66s types.

Both of my FR 64 are wired with the factory silver wiring.

As I am using the FR B-60 VTA lifter on my FR64, the tonearm / headshell change will be fast and precisely, will be fun to learn more about the energy management from Cart to headshell to Tonearm on my Micro.



(I am also looking to buy a FR66s type of arm, but (as already described) hard
to find a good one , as they are like 35 years old)

 

[advanced101]

If you have problems balancing an Ikeda there is no issue in flipping the CW around so the larger diameter side is closer
To the bearing. I have balanced a graphite headshell with a 2m ortofon this way.

I would love that Techdas headshell but I feel $2500 is just an insult. Still, I would gladly pay 1k usd.