DAC choice: Playback Designs/Grimm?

[jeromelang]

Playback Designs has bass extension problem.

I'm a user.

If you haven't yet received better go audition other options.

Check specifically the bass extension with suitable recordings.

I can't determine whether is it analogue output stage problem or dac characteristics that can possibly be remedied with software changes. Andreas is stubborn person who doesn't listen well to suggestions out of his knowledge domain.

 

[chuck]

Playback Designs has bass extension problem.

Not my experience over seven years now with current YG Sonja XVi or Paradigm Tribute speakers or prior Wilson Alexandria XLF. Which recordings have you noticed a lack of bass extension?

 

[Perfect sense Audio]

Playback Designs has bass extension problem.

I'm a user.

If you haven't yet received better go audition other options.

Check specifically the bass extension with suitable recordings.

I can't determine whether is it analogue output stage problem or dac characteristics that can possibly be remedied with software changes. Andreas is stubborn person who doesn't listen well to suggestions out of his knowledge domain.

That can't be right. I've never experienced anything similar during the last couple of years using the MPD-8 in a numerous of systems.

 

[jeromelang]

Not my experience over seven years now with current YG Sonja XVi or Paradigm Tribute speakers or prior Wilson Alexandria XLF. Which recordings have you noticed a lack of bass extension?

it's not about what loudspeakers you use, it's when you play certain recordings on other CD players and then you come back and play them on PB players that suddenly you notice the glaring bass extension deficiencies.

while i hear it on many pieces of music it was most obvious on the japanese Fujiyama recording (part of the Ondekoza boxset) track 1 and 3. earlier i was using the marantz sa10 and the bass impact was jaw dropping.

when the MPS-8 first came i wasn't too concerned about sound as it had to be run-in properly.
even after the requisite 800 hours i still wasn't rushing to scrutinise every little performance aspect.
the highs/mids of the MPS-8 was so silky rich and smooth rivalling even the 2-box EMM Labs TX2/DA2v2 that I had previously owned.
however i did felt that the MPS-8 bass was lacking extension and impact for much of my usual music rotation compared to the EMM Labs combo, which i then chalked it up to the prowess of the 2-box system running on 2 separate power supply lines.
also i was using the MPS-8 in the living room, and even though i have 2 same loudpseakers in both the living room and the other listening room, i could be forgiven for chalking up the bass deficiencies that i had started noticing to room size and acoustic differences.

the first real signs that something was amiss when the Pass Labs Xs150 came.
i ran the MPS-8 direct into the Xs150 and it was the first time I really could sense that bass extension was lacking.
driving the MPS-8 into the Pass Labs Aleph P pre-amp first helped to alleviate the feeling a bit, especially if I push up the gain settings a bit more.
yet, when i play the Fujiyama recording, the really deep low ends were still missing.
i got the Pass Labs Xs pre in and the result was the same.
i substituted the Marantz SA-10 into the system - and wham! the truth hits me in the head and guts.
it's the MPS-8 that was not reproducing the deep low notes.
i continue back and forth between the PB and Marantz over many other recordings. The result is always the same.
the MPS-8 is lacking real bass extension when compared to the 4 times less expensive Marantz SA10.

take note: my Marantz SA10 is switched to the Filter 2 (conventional brickwall) setting.

when i switch the SA10 back to filter 1 (slow roll-off) setting, it too exhibited some truncation of the deeper low frequencies.
(i mentioned this issue on another audio forum)

New 10 series from Marantz

www.stereonet.com

that raises a new question: Is the PB also afflicted with the same problem as the Marantz?


i really doubt it, because the bass extension deficiency problem is much more acute on the MPS-8.

i remember after i had upgraded the firmware on the Playback Designs MPS-5, suddenly i noticed that the bass was't as deep and impactful as before the upgrade. (I then reverted the MPS-5 back to factory setting).

 

[rhyno]

as an MPD-8 owner, and former owner of MPD-6, i would agree that the 6 has limits on bass articulation / drive, but this is not shared by the MPD8 ---may be true w/ the players, and yes its true w/ the lower series dacs given their power supply (but you better have a wicked good amp to know), but its not an issue w/ the MPD8

 

[chuck]

When I auditioned DACs I used pipe organ recordings among others to evaluate bass. I did not have any Taiko drum recordings. The PD Merlot did well on bass and the MPD-8 is better. All the other DACs including ones costing 10x more had some level of the aforementioned digital sound that the Merlot did not. It was not a close call for me. The MPD-8 is still the best DAC I have heard.

i was using the marantz sa10

Are you saying the Marantz SA10 is better than the MPD-8? or the MPD6? or your MPS-8? I like Marantz gear but, uh, no. I have an Marantz AV10 and I have played music through it just to see how it compares to the MPD-8.

 

[thedudeabides]

Andreas is stubborn person who doesn't listen well to suggestions out of his knowledge domain.

Ever consider that he has a more informed technical background (knowledge domain) as the product's designer and doesn't agree with your bass deficiency complaint?

 

[fusion]

I have the MU2 for close to 2 years. Excellent piece no problems. If you turn it off expect the quality of sound to take about 3 hours to recover.

 

[ukiro]

Registering here just for this thread.

I have both the MPD6 and MU2 on a home loan currently thanks to Marcus at Perfect Sense. At first I thought I heard more differences than there really were, as it turned out level matching wasn't spot on. I had used pink noise and an iphone db meter app rather than a multimeter at the speaker terminals (I guess I'm lazy and overly confident in the resolution of the iphone mic), and thought I had them even. But boosting the MU2 to +1dB with the MPD6 set to -3dB, both on RCA out, the dB meter still read the same for both but now they were audibly far more even. Until this tweak, fixed output volume from the MU2 at 0dB sounded weaker than the MPD6.

Note that for any given system, setting the MPD6 to 0, +3, or even +6dB might sound qualitatively better, and some say the MU2 is best at fixed output. So perhaps ignore this unless you're doing the kind of quick A/B switching I was doing today.

I won't comment on my preferences yet as the evaluation is still ongoing.

 

[jeromelang]

update on the Playback Designs MPS-8 bass deficiency problem:

in the past 1 year, i could blame the MPS-8's lack of bass extension on my sony pre amp and power amp in the living room.
when i finally shifted the pass labs x350 (original) and pass labs aleph p out into the living room, the bass performance was instantly better (more punch and boom, but not that much deeper, a problem that I thought i could attribute to the sony SS-M9ED speakers).
when the pass labs xs150 came, the bass was not much improved. well i thought it was still early days before full run-in....
when the xs pre came, i then began to sense something not quite right about the whole thing.
the final realisation that the issue lie with the PB dawned on me when i happened to play the Fujiyama recording.
i then shifted to the marantz sa10. and sure it was, the bass deficiencies of the MPS-8 was confirmed.
the marantz sa10 bass depth and impact was tremendous. why couldn't the MPS-8 do the same???

i then thought about this issue for a long while.
why does the PB player suffer such a peculiar problem?

just on a hunch, i went into the MPS-8 settings menu and scroll down to the PLink In setting.
I had change this setting from the default [SONOMA] to [CLASSIC] in order to use the USB-X4 playback design USB to ST optical adaptor.
the reason is I had originally bought the USB-X4 for use with the MPS-5 player
I had to specify that it was meant to be used with the MPS-5 to the factory so that they can set the internal software to [CLASSIC] so that it can be compatible with the MPS-5.
With the MPS-5 in storage, when I use the USB-X4 with the MPS-8, I have to change the PLink input setting on the MPS-8 to [CLASSIC].

i changed the MPS-8 PLink input setting from [CLASSIC] back to [SONOMA]
i powered off the MPS-8 to refresh the player
i powered up the MPS-8 again and loaded in the same Fujiyama SACD I was playing just before the setting change.

it worked!!!!

the MPS-8 got back all its bass impact, bass extension, bass volume, bass whatever.


So, it was just that stupid setting change, which is totally, supposedly inconsequential to DAC and analogue output performance that had held back the player's true performance all the time.

i mean the USB-X4 wasn't even connected when i'm playing SACD or CD discs. why would such an inconsequential setting change to the USB input protocol affect the player's bass performance in such a big way???

i will not contact andreas over this. can't be bothered. not right now.

the USB-X4 will have to be sent back to factory eventually for it to be changed back to the [SONOMA] setting so that it can be used with the MPS-8.

 

[jeromelang]

Are you saying the Marantz SA10 is better than the MPD-8? or the MPD6? or your MPS-8? I like Marantz gear but, uh, no. I have an Marantz AV10 and I have played music through it just to see how it compares to the MPD-8.

The marantz sa10 is not better than the playback designs MPS-8.

But on the MPS-8, with the PLink input setting changed to [CLASSIC] the deeper low end information went missing.

 

[jeromelang]

Ever consider that he has a more informed technical background (knowledge domain) as the product's designer and doesn't agree with your bass deficiency complaint?

First of all, my communication with Andreas went further back than the MPS-8 bass deficiency problem.

I mentioned that his st optical cables are directional. He answered that he cannot believe it to be so because there is no scientific studies supporting this. He is clearly wrong, as for the last 10 years, being a emm labs user I've continually encountered st optical cable directionality issues with the tsdx/dac2x and tx2/da2 combinations. Other people who uses emm labs supplied st optical cables and as well as aftermarket st optical cables from Aural Symphonics have reported directionality issues. Andreas clearly don't listen enough to his products and designs.

Andreas also dismissed the issue of the d&m optical transport track cueing problem that i reported to him out of hand, simply again, he doesn't bother to do real listening.

As i said, setup and playback knowledge out of his own experiences he has a problem to come to terms with.

This PLink setting change was personally advised by him when I was communicating with him buying the USB-X4. He doesn't seems aware of this issue yet. It is clearly a design flaw. I won't be bothered to alert him to the problem.

 

[jeromelang]

 

[Rumpole]

Nice review. I've had some glitches with my MPS-8 and MPS-X that have frustrating. One major problem was skipping and stuttering in the MPS-X when I was using JPLAY or mConnect with Qobuz. The PBD system did not seem to have very good buffering in my set up with JPLAY, although I was not using Roon which might have solved the problem. I got the MU2 for a second system and now I'm also using it as Roon server for the MPS-X, and that solved the PBD/MPS-X buffering problems. I have not yet directly compared the MPS-8 and Grimm MU2 in the same system, and I plan to keep the MU2 in the second system.

 

[PYP]

As someone who loves the MU2, I agree with his assessment that it is a high-end (whatever that means to folks) component and provides a lot for what passes in this hobby as a modest investment. It is worth mentioning that Grimm Audio is working on a software upgrade that will support other control software. Not a biggie for me since the MU2 implements Roon in a way that sounds excellent and seamlessly integrates Qobuz content.

Also, Grimm Audio started operations in the pro audio world and offers a 5 year warranty on the MU2. That would seem to indicate their confidence in how the MU2 has been designed, built and operates. Certainly (knock on wood), I have had zero problems in spite of numerous Roon updates and the occasional summer power outage. Takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

 

[Perfect sense Audio]

Nice review. I've had some glitches with my MPS-8 and MPS-X that have frustrating. One major problem was skipping and stuttering in the MPS-X when I was using JPLAY or mConnect with Qobuz. The PBD system did not seem to have very good buffering in my set up with JPLAY, although I was not using Roon which might have solved the problem. I got the MU2 for a second system and now I'm also using it as Roon server for the MPS-X, and that solved the PBD/MPS-X buffering problems. I have not yet directly compared the MPS-8 and Grimm MU2 in the same system, and I plan to keep the MU2 in the second system.

I believe these issues to be caused by non optimal integration and support by Mconnect (which is not great) and Jplay (which is great but still under development).

/ Marcus