DCS Vivaldi

TLi

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May 27, 2016
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This is counter to my experience. I found that I greatly preferred the Vivaldi and upsampler to Rossini and clock... it wasn’t even close for me. Having said that, I am gathering funds to buy the Vivaldi clock.
It really depends on what clock you used. If you tried OP21, your impression may change.
 

JimmyS

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Sep 1, 2013
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It really depends on what clock you used. If you tried OP21, your impression may change.

My reference was for the 44.1k/48k dCS clock. My friend who bought my Rossini was on the fence about adding one, and it was a simple test in my system. Listen to a song with and without, then again without and 1/2 way through turn on the clock. He bought the clock that day.

I have not tried a 10MHz clock reference yet, but based on what I have read here, an Cybershaft or Mutec are in my future.
 

Parsons

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Mar 31, 2018
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I'm going to jump into this thread at a perfect time for me, and apologies as I hope to not take it off topic at all. I will go back and re-read-up and try not to repeat questions already asked and answered.

I have a Mutec Ref 10 already, clocking a few up-chain devices (SOTM switch, Uptone EtherRegen, SOTM USB reclocker currently). I feel like my Digital front-end (Antipodes CX/EX/P2 reclocker) were improved by all of this. I am currently then feeding what I would consider a modest and musical PS Audio Directstream DAC. I currently reclock the EX USB signal with the SOTM, then running USB to the PS Directstream OR I reclock the USB with SOTM to the Antipodes P2 reclocker, then run I2S to the PS Directstream DAC. I find both of these inputs to be roughly the same quality SQ, but both slightly better than running ethernet to the Bridge2 onboard the PSAudio DS. It's a LOT of extra devices and wiring and cost for not a huge improvement, admittedly, but I do feel it's improved.

However, I am now waiting for delivery of my Rossini DAC and Clock...hopefully will have them up and running this weekend. So in prep for their arrival...

My questions to this group, from your experiences, are:

1) what is your recommended clock connection path to maximize the clocking/reclocking benefits of this chain? Is the experience that I should run the Mutec to the Rosini clock then Rosini clock to the DAC? Leave the Mutec out of the DAC chain? Sell the Mutec altogether?

2) how do folks recommend I digital-signal-connect the Rossini DAC to my server front end?
a) USB reclocked out of the EX/SOTM USB,
b) networked directly to the EX,
c) networked to the Etherregen,
d) networked out of the SOTM switch,
e) AES or coax out of the Antipodes P2 or
f) none of the above?

I will of course test many of these combos on my own, but this is the one forum that I know people have probably tried these very combos and have experience-based opinions as to what the SQ benefits of each might be.

thanks!
Jay
 

microstrip

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It really depends on what clock you used. If you tried OP21, your impression may change.

As far as I see it you have to get a DCS clock to use the OP21. The DCS DACs and the Vivaldi upsampler only accept word clocks, not the 10 MHz.
 

XCop5089

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
120
91
260
Winchester, UK
I'm going to jump into this thread at a perfect time for me, and apologies as I hope to not take it off topic at all. I will go back and re-read-up and try not to repeat questions already asked and answered.

I have a Mutec Ref 10 already, clocking a few up-chain devices (SOTM switch, Uptone EtherRegen, SOTM USB reclocker currently). I feel like my Digital front-end (Antipodes CX/EX/P2 reclocker) were improved by all of this. I am currently then feeding what I would consider a modest and musical PS Audio Directstream DAC. I currently reclock the EX USB signal with the SOTM, then running USB to the PS Directstream OR I reclock the USB with SOTM to the Antipodes P2 reclocker, then run I2S to the PS Directstream DAC. I find both of these inputs to be roughly the same quality SQ, but both slightly better than running ethernet to the Bridge2 onboard the PSAudio DS. It's a LOT of extra devices and wiring and cost for not a huge improvement, admittedly, but I do feel it's improved.

However, I am now waiting for delivery of my Rossini DAC and Clock...hopefully will have them up and running this weekend. So in prep for their arrival...

My questions to this group, from your experiences, are:

1) what is your recommended clock connection path to maximize the clocking/reclocking benefits of this chain? Is the experience that I should run the Mutec to the Rosini clock then Rosini clock to the DAC? Leave the Mutec out of the DAC chain? Sell the Mutec altogether?

2) how do folks recommend I digital-signal-connect the Rossini DAC to my server front end?
a) USB reclocked out of the EX/SOTM USB,
b) networked directly to the EX,
c) networked to the Etherregen,
d) networked out of the SOTM switch,
e) AES or coax out of the Antipodes P2 or
f) none of the above?

I will of course test many of these combos on my own, but this is the one forum that I know people have probably tried these very combos and have experience-based opinions as to what the SQ benefits of each might be.

thanks!
Jay

Hi Jay

IMHO, everything starts with your Mutec Ref 10 10MHz reference clock signal.
Run one 75 Ohm BNC Clock cable from the Ref 10 to the dCS Rossini Clock 10MHz reference clock BNC input. This will, in turn "re-clock" the dCS Rossini DAC.

There will be five other 75 Ohm outputs as well as two 50 Ohm outputs on the rear of the Mutec Ref 10.
It sounds as though you currently utilise three of these outputs (the EtherREGEN is usually 75 Ohm. Not sure about the SOTM products).

It is difficult to advise on a network connection path, without the aide of a diagram.

In my own case, I start with a Mutec Ref 10 SE-120, sending a 75 Ohm signal to the 10MHz reference BNC input of my dCS Vivaldi Master Word Clock (this in turn, synchronises the other dCS components in the stack (Transport, DAC and Upsampler). I use a second 75 Ohm output from the Mutec to "re-clock" my EtherREGEN switch, which is also powered from one 12v rail of an ultra-low noise LPSU (Coherent Systems QP-1). My own network is simpler in that, from a TP-Link AC2800 Modem/Router, the signal is carried by a 1m LAN cable to the 'A' side of the EtherREGEN and a second 1m LAN cable exits the 'B' side of the EtherREGEN and enters the ethernet input of the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler. I also use a Melco N1ZH server/digital library which is connected directly by USB cable to the dCS Upsampler. A second short LAN cable exits the 'A" side of the EtherREGEN to an ethernet input on the rear of the Melco to allow control of files and Qobuz Studio streaming via an Apple iPad and dCS Mosaic App. I do not "re-clock" the USB signal.

I hope that makes sense!
 

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Parsons

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2018
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Ohio
Hi Jay

IMHO, everything starts with your Mutec Ref 10 10MHz reference clock signal.
Run one 75 Ohm BNC Clock cable from the Ref 10 to the dCS Rossini Clock 10MHz reference clock BNC input. This will, in turn "re-clock" the dCS Rossini DAC.

There will be five other 75 Ohm outputs as well as two 50 Ohm outputs on the rear of the Mutec Ref 10.
It sounds as though you currently utilise three of these outputs (the EtherREGEN is usually 75 Ohm. Not sure about the SOTM products).

It is difficult to advise on a network connection path, without the aide of a diagram.

In my own case, I start with a Mutec Ref 10 SE-120, sending a 75 Ohm signal to the 10MHz reference BNC input of my dCS Vivaldi Master Word Clock (this in turn, synchronises the other dCS components in the stack (Transport, DAC and Upsampler). I use a second 75 Ohm output from the Mutec to "re-clock" my EtherREGEN switch, which is also powered from one 12v rail of an ultra-low noise LPSU (Coherent Systems QP-1). My own network is simpler in that, from a TP-Link AC2800 Modem/Router, the signal is carried by a 1m LAN cable to the 'A' side of the EtherREGEN and a second 1m LAN cable exits the 'B' side of the EtherREGEN and enters the ethernet input of the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler. I also use a Melco N1ZH server/digital library which is connected directly by USB cable to the dCS Upsampler. A second short LAN cable exits the 'A" side of the EtherREGEN to an ethernet input on the rear of the Melco to allow control of files and Qobuz Studio streaming via an Apple iPad and dCS Mosaic App. I do not "re-clock" the USB signal.

I hope that makes sense!

Thank you! It does, this is exactly was I was curious about...

So I'll run an additional 75 ohm cable from one of the Mutec 75 ohm outs to the Rossini clock, then a 75 ohm clock cable from the Rossini clock to the DAC, yes?

So from the previous post above yours, the Rossini DAC wouldn't take a direct feed from the 10 mhz Mutec? If not, I guess I don't know the difference in those signals.
 

XCop5089

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
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Winchester, UK
Thank you! It does, this is exactly was I was curious about...

So I'll run an additional 75 ohm cable from one of the Mutec 75 ohm outs to the Rossini clock, then a 75 ohm clock cable from the Rossini clock to the DAC, yes?

So from the previous post above yours, the Rossini DAC wouldn't take a direct feed from the 10 mhz Mutec? If not, I guess I don't know the difference in those signals.

Hi Jay

My fault, for not being familiar with the dCS Rossini spec, but glancing at the dCS website, it doesn't look like the Rossini clock accepts a 10MHz reference input (like the Vivaldi Master Word Clock), only having three 75 Ohm bnc clock OUTPUTS!

The Rossini clock would be synced to the Rossini DAC, via a 75 Ohm clock cable, but unfortunately, you will not be able to use your Mutec Ref 10 to provide a 10MHz reference clock signal to the dCS Rossini components!

The Mutec Ref 10 can, however, still be used with the EtherREGEN and SOTM pieces, which will improve both jitter and noise performance.

Alternatively, you could go for the dCS Vivaldi DAC and Master Word Clock!
 

Parsons

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2018
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113
Ohio
Hi Jay

My fault, for not being familiar with the dCS Rossini spec, but glancing at the dCS website, it doesn't look like the Rossini clock accepts a 10MHz reference input (like the Vivaldi Master Word Clock), only having three 75 Ohm bnc clock OUTPUTS!

The Rossini clock would be synced to the Rossini DAC, via a 75 Ohm clock cable, but unfortunately, you will not be able to use your Mutec Ref 10 to provide a 10MHz reference clock signal to the dCS Rossini components!

The Mutec Ref 10 can, however, still be used with the EtherREGEN and SOTM pieces, which will improve both jitter and noise performance.

Alternatively, you could go for the dCS Vivaldi DAC and Master Word Clock!

Ah, interesting. Well I guess it will be an interesting comparison between the Rossini clock and Mutec.
 
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TLi

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May 27, 2016
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As far as I see it you have to get a DCS clock to use the OP21. The DCS DACs and the Vivaldi upsampler only accept word clocks, not the 10 MHz.
You are right. dCS system needs a dCS clock to work, but the dCS clock is not good enough. Adding a good 10MHz reference clock, such as OP21A, greatly enhances the performance.

So my point is to have a good clock system first before you determine which DAC is better.
 

Parsons

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Mar 31, 2018
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I read the manuals last night--you are right, of course on how the Rossini kit works. So I plan to keep the Mutec in the chain for the other devices, which I'm sure will still help. Then I can decide to either upgrade it to an SE, upgrade the dCS clock, etc., as I see fit.
 
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MDAguy

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They've made it pretty clear that they still view even 256 as a small corner case in the market. Much as I would like to see/hear it, I don't believe they will go there until Vivaldi's successor is released. And even then, it's likely to be on a delayed cycle much like their current firmware upgrades. I invested in the Vivaldi stack this year [no Transport], because I love the way it sounds, and after discussions with my dealer, the economics of a trade-up to the successor made just as much sense as buying Rossini and eventually making the same trade.

I too recently got into a dCS DAC, the Rossini but after talking a lot to dCS and two different dealers I get the impression that there is no replacement for the Vivaldi (And family) anytime soon, nor can there be, as the technology is somewhat at an asymptotic point where it's not really going to change very much if at all unless a whole new digital format is released (which isn't in the pipeline).. Much of what will change with Vivaldi and family will all take place in software... as to DSD 256+, the guys at dCS tell me it's just not worth the work when you consider the ridiculously low number of recordings in DSD 256+.
 

jfrech

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I too recently got into a dCS DAC, the Rossini but after talking a lot to dCS and two different dealers I get the impression that there is no replacement for the Vivaldi (And family) anytime soon, nor can there be, as the technology is somewhat at an asymptotic point where it's not really going to change very much if at all unless a whole new digital format is released (which isn't in the pipeline).. Much of what will change with Vivaldi and family will all take place in software... as to DSD 256+, the guys at dCS tell me it's just not worth the work when you consider the ridiculously low number of recordings in DSD 256+.

First, congrats on your Rossini ! As to your other comments, I agree, matches exactly what my dealer has told me.
 
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Al M.

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Much of what will change with Vivaldi and family will all take place in software... as to DSD 256+, the guys at dCS tell me it's just not worth the work when you consider the ridiculously low number of recordings in DSD 256+.

Redbook CD format suffices.
 

cuprone1

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Hi All.
Sorry for question. My Vivaldi Clock display now shows 44.1 and 88.2 . The latter one is not correct. How to change to 48?
Thank You
 

jfrech

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Hi All.
Sorry for question. My Vivaldi Clock display now shows 44.1 and 88.2 . The latter one is not correct. How to change to 48?
Thank You
You accidentally pressed a button. The right most button is labeled Freq 2. Press it a few times until you get to 48.

This is a feature of your Vivaldi clocks that you can lock in at higher rates....
 
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jvvita

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Once, the remote to my projector changed the clock's frequency. I would proceed as @jfrech suggested and then lock the clock's setting, to avoid this from happening again.
 

cuprone1

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Feb 10, 2013
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You accidentally pressed a button. The right most button is labeled Freq 2. Press it a few times until you get to 48.

This is a feature of your Vivaldi clocks that you can lock in at higher rates....
Uauh, now all is ok. Thank you
 

jfrech

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Anyone tried Roon 1.8 yet with your dCS setup? My NAS drive via my upsampler is clearly better. More dimensional, more relaxed, more enjoyable.
 
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