Dedicated audio room build thread aka The Big Dig

[HughP3]

If its a dedicated listening room and you are planning on putting the amplifier/amplifiers near the speakers a long balanced cable takes very little space and can be runaround the side of the room easily with very little visibility and can be hidden easily if needed.
I have a question I looked at the site of the people you are using and have they ever built "listening rooms" before or only studios for recording?
They are certainly not the same thing. I am not saying it won't be excellent just asking the question.
I will certainly suggest to you that when you are finished that you get someone to professionally set up your system and spend the time to give you the desired result. Good luck and I hope you get an amazing result. The room is always IMHO overlooked and its imperative to GREAT sound.View attachment 54629

Thanks for taking the time to comments Elliot. Take a look at this https://www.acousticfields.com/dual-usage-room-listening-and-piano/
My room will be very similar. I do have 20' of AQ hi-end balanced XLR cable. I also have a pair of AQ Hurricane power cords for the amps and Dragon for the dac. The pre did not improve with a hi-end cord. the power cords are 6 feet which wich will likely not be long enough. I have 2 choices, use hi-end extension cord along with the AQ stuff or go longer on speaker cable which i dont think is wise. Guess I will find out if these cords are still worth it if used with extensions.
Your are a dealer of some very well thought of equipment. CH amps has been recommened to me.

 

[HughP3]

I was fortunate to be able to build an acoustically designed media room in 2015 as part of a house addition. Actually it was the main reason for the addition since I had been disinvited from further listening in our FR! The acoustic design was based on stereo listening although we watch movies on weekends. It's turned out to be a wonderful room for both purposes. I spend many hours enjoying music each week. The room was easily the most important upgrade to my stereo system. I look forward to watching your exciting build.

Thank you Len

 

[HughP3]

What a great project. Your room's finished dimensions will be almost identical to Magico's listening room. They used 5" of QuietRock all the way around since they were concerned about isolating the room from a factory full of machine tools. Plenty of absorption and diffusion too. The best recorded sound I've heard in forty years in the hobby. Listening to M3's and $200k of electronics driving them didn't hurt either. Google Magico listening room for some pics. Good luck with your project.

[B]kswanson27[/B] i will look for the room tonight!
My design is a mix of 3/4" room facing such as birch plywood,. the 12" stud space will have calculated air gaps, carbon absorption cells and specific layers of other material sandwiched with acoustic vinyl. I am building the absorption cells. at least that is the plan for now. there will be 98 of these 6 foot long cells. for diffusion i will install 34 of his QRD17 panel kits which have a 16" max well depth. these will be CNC cut for me, i just have to assemble (saves some $$). these will cover the entire front and rear walls( 13H x 21W) . Because of the decent room size Dennis thinks the ceiling will require less complexity once final calculations are complete. also hi-freq absorption is not calculated yet.

 

[kswanson27]

[B]kswanson27[/B] i will look for the room tonight!
My design is a mix of 3/4" room facing such as birch plywood,. the 12" stud space will have calculated air gaps, carbon absorption cells and specific layers of other material sandwiched with acoustic vinyl. I am building the absorption cells. at least that is the plan for now. there will be 98 of these 6 foot long cells. for diffusion i will install 34 of his QRD17 panel kits which have a 16" max well depth. these will be CNC cut for me, i just have to assemble (saves some $$). these will cover the entire front and rear walls( 13H x 21W) . Because of the decent room size Dennis thinks the ceiling will require less complexity once final calculations are complete. also hi-freq absorption is not calculated yet.

Forgot to mention the Magico room in on resilient channels and is essentially a suspended room inside of a concrete building. If you've looked at the pics you'll see a cloud/diffusion treatment on the ceiling, not much absorption. Alon Wolf told me the room is bass neutral down to 60 Hz. I think you have a different set of design parameters than Magico as I would If I built a dedicated room.

 

[Elliot G.]

Thanks for taking the time to comments Elliot. Take a look at this https://www.acousticfields.com/dual-usage-room-listening-and-piano/
My room will be very similar. I do have 20' of AQ hi-end balanced XLR cable. I also have a pair of AQ Hurricane power cords for the amps and Dragon for the dac. The pre did not improve with a hi-end cord. the power cords are 6 feet which wich will likely not be long enough. I have 2 choices, use hi-end extension cord along with the AQ stuff or go longer on speaker cable which i dont think is wise. Guess I will find out if these cords are still worth it if used with extensions.
Your are a dealer of some very well thought of equipment. CH amps has been recommended to me.

I have owned and used a lot of ARC gear and although I can't say I am a fan of what cables you have the REF- 6, 10 etc have always shown improvements with the power cables I have used. After going through this whole process using an extension cord doesn"t make much sense to me.
Make proper choices to get the desired results.
IMHO using the best gear and a proper cable system is really important however all needs to be properly installed and set up.
I feel like a broken record with the set up line but without that you really don't know what you have. Good luck with your project .
CH is amazing gear and just as good a company, that's why I got involved. Using it with the Gobel cables IMHO makes it even better.

 

[HughP3]

I have owned and used a lot of ARC gear and although I can't say I am a fan of what cables you have the REF- 6, 10 etc have always shown improvements with the power cables I have used. After going through this whole process using an extension cord doesn"t make much sense to me.
Make proper choices to get the desired results.
IMHO using the best gear and a proper cable system is really important however all needs to be properly installed and set up.
I feel like a broken record with the set up line but without that you really don't know what you have. Good luck with your project .
CH is amazing gear and just as good a company, that's why I got involved. Using it with the Gobel cables IMHO makes it even better.

Hello Elliot, maybe extension cable is the wrong description. I will need longer than 6 feet power cable in all likely hood. Joseph Cali my Gryphon dealer will be doing the setup. On the Macs, the AQ power cable made a real difference. On the Ref 6, after extensive listening with and without I heard no difference. - Hugh

 

[HughP3]

Looks good!

I'd consider something like a Torus in-wall unit located as close to the electronics as possible and Furutech GTX NCF receptacles. Not sure if that crosses into insanity for you but I think AC power is very important and I am always amazed at how much effect it can have, both positive when things are good and negative when they are not.

Sounds like you have a comprehensive plan for physical construction, layout, acoustics, etc... Good luck and I look forward to seeing it come together!

Thanks Dave. I have Furutech outlets already book marked to buy. Will research the panel as I am not familiar with it. I am familiar with stand alone power conditioners. I even looked into DC battery power units a while back but they still have noise issues.

 

[HughP3]

To all keep the comments coming even though I sense I may be off base (i.e frustrating ) some. I understand your concerns about clean power.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hello Elliot, maybe extension cable is the wrong description. I will need longer than 6 feet power cable in all likely hood. Joseph Cali my Gryphon dealer will be doing the setup. On the Macs, the AQ power cable made a real difference. On the Ref 6, after extensive listening with and without I heard no difference. - Hugh

that wasn't my experience but I am not a MAC fan and to brutally honest you can do a lot better in the electronics dept

 

[HughP3]

that wasn't my experience but I am not a MAC fan and to brutally honest you can do a lot better in the electronics dept

Yes the Macs will be going. However I used to have Krell 350 monos. Interesting, Direct A/b comparison to Krell was almost imperceptible. To that end, Any amp I buy now must be a home trial first.

 

[Elliot G.]

Yes the Macs will be going. However I used to have Krell 350 monos. Interesting, Direct A/b comparison to Krell was almost imperceptible. To that end, Any amp I buy now must be a home trial first.

With all due respect I think you may be doing something wrong. Without a properly set up system comparisons are worthless. There is nothing wrong with wanting to hear something at home however if the speakers aren't positioned correctly you won't get what you are supposed too.
There are a lot of much better amplifiers today than what you have used. I sell one of them however they are not the only one you might consider.
BTW if there is no differences that you hear I can tell you with certainty that there is something wrong in what you have or how it is set up. You may have trouble knowing which is better, or which you prefer long term however they should be different in some degree and it SHOULD not be that hard to hear. You are going through great expense and trouble to build a room and get it right , you want to be able when its done to hear what the gear is doing and to produce amazing sound. Again best of luck

 

[marty]

Thanks Bruce. The floor is concrete in this case. I found kits that can be used but slab must be channeled - which is very doable, its not a big concern for me but I will ponder it a bit more. Otoh Every high end room i have seen has running cable. with mood lighting it will not be easily seen.

Hugh, nice project! I'm curious- you said you liked the Gryphon Trident at AXPONA. Agree. I thought it was some of the best sound at the show. So why not consider Gryphon Amps to replace the Macs? (You may not have a good impedance match using the Ref 6 but that might apply to several other amps as well).

 

[HughP3]

With all due respect I think you may be doing something wrong. Without a properly set up system comparisons are worthless. There is nothing wrong with wanting to hear something at home however if the speakers aren't positioned correctly you won't get what you are supposed too.
There are a lot of much better amplifiers today than what you have used. I sell one of them however they are not the only one you might consider.
BTW if there is no differences that you hear I can tell you with certainty that there is something wrong in what you have or how it is set up. You may have trouble knowing which is better, or which you prefer long term however they should be different in some degree and it SHOULD not be that hard to hear. You are going through great expense and trouble to build a room and get it right , you want to be able when its done to hear what the gear is doing and to produce amazing sound. Again best of luck

Good advice Elliot appreciate it. It’s been interesting what did make an audible difference for me. It all is likely due to be my narrow room 11W x 21L x8H and overly ambitious speakers Maggi 20.7 replacing Wilson WP7 and the latest try, brief stint of a used pair of YG Anat iii with some Sonja upgrades. Frustrating Hence the room project.

Joe Cali wants to bring a Gryphon EVO out when I am ready for setup. No he does not like Mac either. Initially I said no it was not part of the project and since the Gryphons are semi active, The macs would only drive the 98db efficient mid range and AMT tweeter. It seems to me the EVO or CH or other hi end, hi power amp would be over kill. Now you’ve got me in a conundrum. I should take him up on it and make the comparison. I am trying to draw a budget line in the sand but the tide keeps washing over it.

 

[HughP3]

Hugh, nice project! I'm curious- you said you liked the Gryphon Trident at AXPONA. Agree. I thought it was some of the best sound at the show. So why not consider Gryphon Amps to replace the Macs? (You may not have a good impedance match using the Ref 6 but that might apply to several other amps as well).

Thanks Marty for joining the fray. See my post above. I had another thread about amps a month or so ago. Gryphon , CH and the AR Ref 160M were mentioned. Our own RonR thought the 160 would complement the Ref6. Again not part of the original budget but peer pressure is building.

 

[DaveC]

Thanks Dave. I have Furutech outlets already book marked to buy. Will research the panel as I am not familiar with it. I am familiar with stand alone power conditioners. I even looked into DC battery power units a while back but they still have noise issues.

Sure, the in-wall units are basically a larger power conditioner combined with a subpanel, so you can run several lines from the wall unit.

https://www.toruspower.com/na-wall-mount/

I'd place it as close to the electronics as possible so you can minimize resistance in grounds by keeping the runs from the Torus wall unit as short as possible, and also use wire that's all the same length so the resistance in the ground leg is exactly the same. The idea is to keep the grounds of your components at the same voltage and also minimize resistance in the ground connections between components. This will minimize noise due to currents flowing between component grounds, since V=IR we reduce R as much as possible and noise voltages from ground currents are minimized. I'd also use 10g wire instead of 12g with 20A breakers.

If you do this you can eliminate stand-alone power distribution/conditioner devices and simply plug your system into receptacles built into the walls. IMO, the Furutech GTX NCF with the wall plate and cover is the best solution. I keep them in-stock and offer free burn-in, and can also send you demo cables of both Furutech and ZenWave AC power cables you can try out for free. I have a new UPOCC silver ribbon power cable that is pretty amazing.

I've experimented a lot with battery power and it can work well, but it does take filter circuitry after the battery and even then it's hard to beat a really good LPS. I could only get the battery solution to be equal, but not better... However, I can see the appeal if your local AC power quality is very bad.

 

[HughP3]

Sure, the in-wall units are basically a larger power conditioner combined with a subpanel, so you can run several lines from the wall unit.

https://www.toruspower.com/na-wall-mount/

I'd place it as close to the electronics as possible so you can minimize resistance in grounds by keeping the runs from the Torus wall unit as short as possible, and also use wire that's all the same length so the resistance in the ground leg is exactly the same. The idea is to keep the grounds of your components at the same voltage and also minimize resistance in the ground connections between components. This will minimize noise due to currents flowing between component grounds, since V=IR we reduce R as much as possible and noise voltages from ground currents are minimized. I'd also use 10g wire instead of 12g with 20A breakers.

If you do this you can eliminate stand-alone power distribution/conditioner devices and simply plug your system into receptacles built into the walls. IMO, the Furutech GTX NCF with the wall plate and cover is the best solution. I keep them in-stock and offer free burn-in, and can also send you demo cables of both Furutech and ZenWave AC power cables you can try out for free. I have a new UPOCC silver ribbon power cable that is pretty amazing.

I've experimented a lot with battery power and it can work well, but it does take filter circuitry after the battery and even then it's hard to beat a really good LPS. I could only get the battery solution to be equal, but not better... However, I can see the appeal if your local AC power quality is very bad.

Dave thanks for speaking with me today, it was most helpful and will be in touch on future cabling needs. Also for the thread I spoke with Torus, will be doing an AVR 45 BAL in-wall unit per their calculations.

 

[Elliot G.]

Good advice Elliot appreciate it. It’s been interesting what did make an audible difference for me. It all is likely due to be my narrow room 11W x 21L x8H and overly ambitious speakers Maggi 20.7 replacing Wilson WP7 and the latest try, brief stint of a used pair of YG Anat iii with some Sonja upgrades. Frustrating Hence the room project.

Joe Cali wants to bring a Gryphon EVO out when I am ready for setup. No he does not like Mac either. Initially I said no it was not part of the project and since the Gryphons are semi active, The macs would only drive the 98db efficient mid range and AMT tweeter. It seems to me the EVO or CH or other hi end, hi power amp would be over kill. Now you’ve got me in a conundrum. I should take him up on it and make the comparison. I am trying to draw a budget line in the sand but the tide keeps washing over it.

It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the MAC's they are not what is required with a speaker like that. You may not need a very high powered amp but you CERTAINLY need a great one. I don't know the Gryphon but I will say if that was what you heard and it was playing and you then decided to purchase the speakers it would make sense to me to at least start there. To spend what you are and did and not complete the task to me is foolish and if that was the case perhaps you should have spent less somewhere else. A high end system is just that and if you have the MAC which is to me like snow tires on a sports car you are really making a mistake.
I would let him set the system up the way he says it should be and then you should have a quality starting point for any further trials.

 

[HughP3]

It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the MAC's they are not what is required with a speaker like that. You may not need a very high powered amp but you CERTAINLY need a great one. I don't know the Gryphon but I will say if that was what you heard and it was playing and you then decided to purchase the speakers it would make sense to me to at least start there. To spend what you are and did and not complete the task to me is foolish and if that was the case perhaps you should have spent less somewhere else. A high end system is just that and if you have the MAC which is to me like snow tires on a sports car you are really making a mistake.
I would let him set the system up the way he says it should be and then you should have a quality starting point for any further trials.

Ok Keeping to the original plan which was the Gryphon Evo

 

[Elliot G.]

Ok Keeping to the original plan which was the Gryphon Evo

IMHO that makes much more sense on two counts. First that gives the set up person something to work with that should work, I would suggest you get his opinion about what you have before he sets them up, and secondly you get to hear something you might want to own.
If you were purchasing my speakers for example I would definitely tell you that you would not get the desired results you heard in my place with your gear.
Enjoy

 

[KeithR]

I’d rather have Macs than a lot of the SS amps listed in this thread. Do your own comparisons, make your own decision.