Dedicated powerlines, how many?

[RogerD]

I totally agree. I like to think that my equipment is well constructed and top shelf but it wasn't until I put each component on a rack designed to solve the vibration issue that I can say I truly heard my equipment. Same for line conditioners

Steve, though your rack's designer may well claim to have designed a rack to "solve" the problem with mechanical energy with all due respect, I can assure you your rack has a long journey ahead before can absolutely minimize much less solve the problem of universal distortions induced by mechanical energy onto our sensitive instruments. Nevertheless, I appreciate your comment as it means much.

That said I'd like to add a few notes about what I consider by far the most important and yet also by far the most overlooked aspect of high-end audio and that's building our playback systems on the right foundation.

I’m a huge proponent of superior and extreme forms of AC mgmt and especially superior and extreme forms of vibration mgmt for which I call building on the right foundation. Superior and extreme being the key words here and thus implying there exists plenty of inferior and half-assed forms.

My position is that electrical and mechanical (vibrational) energies are a basic requirement for any playback system to function at all. Yet when under controlled or improperly managed, these same two energies will utterly destroy our sensitive components’ precision and accuracy so that they can only perform at a small percentage of their real potential. Thus leaving a majority of the music information embedded in a given recording (regardless of format) so distorted that even though processed, it remained inaudible due to a much raised noise floor. A performance-limiting governor if you will.

Whether or not anybody agrees, every last system is built on this very same foundation. Whether it's an inferior / half-assed or superior / extreme foundation is entirely up to us. And just as in perhaps every other industry, it is the foundation that ultimately determines the performance levels of everything built on top of it.

Moreover, for those who live and die by measurements coming from sensitive measuring instruments, I've yet to try it but I've no doubt the very same philosophy applies to our sensitive measuring instruments too. That's why I put very little stock in measurements.

This thread has already gone off course,but the OP has been given good advice in the beginning. For those that haven't figured it out yet their is a quiet revolution taking place in high end audio. That revolution is vibration reduction and what I call common system noise reduction. After much experimentation I think the noise reduction will yield far greater results,but the joining of both mitigation engineering is vital to even come close to what any piece of gear in any system is capable of. Until you open the door and start down this pathway you have no idea what any system is capable of, no matter the cost or who designed it.
I have a new friend in the UK who started his "extreme grounding" journey and who has pm'ed me and said "wow and wow and how good can it get? I just say be patient and keep doing what your doing and tell him that until your gain level increases about +3db and your speakers produce a soundfield that has no boundaries you are not close. Then you start crossing thresholds.

It is a mind blower and you can't measure it.

I listened to this recording many times....tonight as I think my system is close? to settling in, just fantastic.

 

[Yuri Korzunov]

We are in full agreement Yuri.

I was explaining how Folsom thinks. Not how I think.

Yes. I understand it.

 

[Folsom]

There's a lot of complication with trying to make an appliance fully conditioned. stehno is right that series conditioners, or even series conditioner with certain filtration in appliances often works poorly. Parts of one filter can literally SING with another filter, to the point where you might even be able to feel it. And when I say sing, I mean generating a ton of noise. This can actually cause rather poor current response. But another outside component is other things in your house with properties that also interfere with many filters; dedicated lines reduce that.

Manufacturers like to use cheap IEC inlet filters, or even slightly spendy ones, because on paper they look useful(ish). Sadly they tend to saturate a lot during peak current moments, usually because of the complex nature of an AC systems interactions. They won't actually limit the devices specifications typically, but it IS possible say if there was enough capacitance on the line for an inductor in one to saturate to the point where something like a CD player won't be able to operate it's disc tray (this is a real example of a problem I solved). That can be true for SMPS supplies as well as the inlet filters. None of this is exactly electronics 101... which is why it's somewhat mysterious to most manufacturers.

 

[Yuri Korzunov]

There's a lot of complication with trying to make an appliance fully conditioned. stehno is right that series conditioners, or even series conditioner with certain filtration in appliances often works poorly. Parts of one filter can literally SING with another filter, to the point where you might even be able to feel it. And when I say sing, I mean generating a ton of noise. This can actually cause rather poor current response. But another outside component is other things in your house with properties that also interfere with many filters; dedicated lines reduce that.

Manufacturers like to use cheap IEC inlet filters, or even slightly spendy ones, because on paper they look useful(ish). Sadly they tend to saturate a lot during peak current moments, usually because of the complex nature of an AC systems interactions. They won't actually limit the devices specifications typically, but it IS possible say if there was enough capacitance on the line for an inductor in one to saturate to the point where something like a CD player won't be able to operate it's disc tray (this is a real example of a problem I solved). That can be true for SMPS supplies as well as the inlet filters. None of this is exactly electronics 101... which is why it's somewhat mysterious to most manufacturers.

Interferention picture is too complex. Work all components in system is complex thing too. What suturate or not there, I don't know. Because need electrical scheme as minimum and learning it.

It is separate technical part, where own experts. As complex engeneer, who create system, I know how to control work of the experts: they should provide electrical parameters that I ask them. This point allow us talk in single language, without different understanding of result.

If you want improve your system you want use as mark "sound" term.

How you check sound? On ears/brain. It's correct?

As example, you improve system of other man. You like sound. He don't like or don't see difference before and after. How to found common language here?

Unfortunatelly in brains no direct interface for full understanding between humans.

So need permanently learn how to impact measurable features to subjective perception. It is one of tasks of audio engineer.

 

[Folsom]

Ya, it takes some experience of trying things to get a bigger picture. I'd say there's ways to get pretty standard results. But my participation in explaining, albeit in laymen terms, ends there due to IP.

Base recommendations? The SurgeX is a safe bet, and DaveC makes them much nicer. That's all for now.

 

[amirm]

Manufacturers like to use cheap IEC inlet filters, or even slightly spendy ones, because on paper they look useful(ish).

They use low cost devices because they are not trying to accomplish what you think they are: They are there for two reasons:

1. Surge protection per IEC recommendation.
2. Limiting radiation out of the device to get FCC/CE certification.

There is nothing inside your audio gear that uses AC at mains voltages. The peak to peak voltage of mains is 340 volts! Tube circuits do use high voltage but it is not AC.

So instead of trying to clean up the AC, focus is put on cleaning up the actual DC voltages inside your gear. Filtering a 5 volt output is massively, massively cheaper and far more effective than trying anything in AC mains. And furthermore, cleaning up the DC filters it right where it is needed, i.e. feed to corresponding circuit that needs the power.

If you filter way back at AC mains, you still pick up noise on the way to the circuit that needs power.

Everything scales up in size and cost when you go to lower frequencies (i.e. audio). Look at how large the filter components are inside your speaker crossover and none of those are operating at 340 volts.

Outboard "conditioners" perform AC filtering because that is the only connection to your audio gear available to them. Per above, that is not at all the case inside your gear where you can filter low voltage DC sources to your heart's content. In high-end gear tons of attention is paid to such filtering to achieve the ultra-low-noise output that some of them are capable of. This performance can be measured and hence proven to be there. In contrast there is no measurement or proof that any outboard conditioner improves on the output of your gear.

For an outboard conditioner to put out pure 60 Hz with no other harmonics and noise above that, it would have to be massive in size. Probably the size of a refrigerator!

There are also negatives to these boxes as I mentioned. They reduce available power as they create insertion losses. And they can dump noise in the safety ground due to its high impedance at higher frequencies.

So use these boxes if you like but let's not dabble in pseudo-engineering. High-end designers absolutely understand power supplies and a heck of a lot better than an unskilled audiophiles. To say otherwise is like saying a sports car maker only knows about engines but not suspension. And that Joe driver with no car design experience can outperform. It is a fantasy to have. But it stops at being that.

 

[GaryProtein]

I use one dedicated 20 amp line for my sources and preamp and one for each power amplifier, so five lines in my system. Luckily I have a full basement, so running lines from the panel is easy.

 

[DaveC]

Yep!

Better to ignore if one cannot answer the questions asked.... with facts.

I haven't read the whole thread but just had to comment on this. Amir is asking leading questions with an obvious agenda. If his business carries SurgeX then he knows the technical data he asked for is available right on the SurgeX website. So the question is, why play stupid and ask Folsom for it? Hmmm....

IMO that's a good enough reason to put Amir on ignore. IDK about you, but I love it when people ask me questions with the intent of attacking the answers I give instead of just stating their position.

 

[DaveC]

Note that SurgeX is a series mode device. As such it will introduce losses of its own in the AC path. In other words, power coming out of it is less than power coming into it. You also introduce bunch more sockets and cords into the equation. As such it would not be a device that I would plug any of my power amplifiers into.

If you need surge protection for which SurgeX is designed, then my recommendation is to do that at your electrical panel. That is where you have the strongest shunt to the ground. Doing it tens of feet later is not as effective. If you do want to put it next to the equipment then SurgeX is a better choice than MOV based SPDs. And that is their claim to fame, not any filtering.

Lol, you have no clue and are spreading false information... again.

"Series mode" is for the operation of the surge device and nothing else. It's a superior way of dealing with surge energy. Framing this as a negative is ignorant and misguided.

Most surges are created inside the home by motors starting and stopping so using surge protection at the point of use is better for an audio system.

Also, SurgeX's "claim to fame" is not just surge protection, as that's also available from the patent holder of the surge device for less money. SurgeX is a higher end product because it includes a very good emi/rfi filter, under/over voltage shutdown and inrush current limiting.

The fact you won't plug an amp into it is ridiculous, it's what they are made for. I've tested it in dozens of systems with no detrimental effects ever reported. It was used to power amps at RMAF for 2 years and won multiple awards including best of show, cost no object both times.

The only thing you said that makes any sense at all is the addition of additional wiring and outlets not being ideal, and that's why I modify them, I improve these parts so they make less of a difference and it works quite well.

SurgeX is used in Carnegie Hall, Yankee Stadium, by NASA and Lockheed, etc... they are the best industrial power distribution available.

 

[DaveC]

 

[DaveC]

So instead of trying to clean up the AC, focus is put on cleaning up the actual DC voltages inside your gear. Filtering a 5 volt output is massively, massively cheaper and far more effective than trying anything in AC mains. And furthermore, cleaning up the DC filters it right where it is needed, i.e. feed to corresponding circuit that needs the power.

So use these boxes if you like but let's not dabble in pseudo-engineering. High-end designers absolutely understand power supplies and a heck of a lot better than an unskilled audiophiles. To say otherwise is like saying a sports car maker only knows about engines but not suspension. And that Joe driver with no car design experience can outperform. It is a fantasy to have. But it stops at being that.

How ironic. Talk about "pseudo-engineering"? You are the KING Amir.

The first paragraph I quoted is one of the worst things I've ever read from a technical perspective. First, it's a false dichotomy. This OR that? What exactly prevents doing both? And the separation of AC from DC, you think there is no relation? That a diode bridge and regulator is some sort of brick wall? That voltage regulators are suitable for every use? Your comment here is so dumbed-down and simplistic it doesn't even make sense anymore, let alone the fact it's horribly misguided.

I'm getting sick and tired of your presentation of half the facts. The half that suits your point of view. I'm sick and tired of trying to correct your lopsided views and misinformation. You have no interest in contributing and advancing knowledge here, all you want to do is WIN. You do this **** on purpose, you're the definition of a troll, which is against TOU and god knows how Steve has the patience to keep you around.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .


Note that SurgeX is a series mode device. As such it will introduce losses of its own in the AC path. In other words, power coming out of it is less than power coming into it. You also introduce bunch more sockets and cords into the equation. As such it would not be a device that I would plug any of my power amplifiers into.

. . .

This makes good sense to me. I would never plug a high current amp into a surge suppressor.

 

[DaveC]

This makes good sense to me. I would never plug a high current amp into a surge suppressor.

Except it's not factual and not correct.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Except it's not factual and not correct.

In your opinion.

Almost nothing we do in this hobby is susceptible of provable, objective, peer-reviewable, factual analysis.

An electrician measured the in-rush current of my VTL at 30 amps. It does not make sense to me to plug that amplifier into a surge suppressor.

 

[microstrip]

This makes good sense to me. I would never plug a high current amp into a surge suppressor.

Well, IMHO this statement is similar to the situation where a person does not practice any sports because a friend died of an art attack while playing a violent sport ...

Not all high current amplifiers (I would love to have an exact technical definition of it ...) are alike and not all surge suppressors are alike. Many surge suppressors are adequate for high power amplifiers.

 

[DaveC]

In your opinion.

Almost nothing we do in this hobby is susceptible of provable, objective, peer-reviewable, factual analysis.

An electrician measured the in-rush current of my VTL at 30 amps. It does not make sense to me to plug that amplifier into a surge suppressor.

No, not everything is opinion.

Inrush current has nothing to do with anything, it's magnitude depends on when you turn your power on in relation to where the power is in the 50/60 Hz cycle. That's why sometimes inrush current can trip breakers and other times it doesn't. The SUrgeX does limit inrush current, but that's actually a good thing as it keeps breakers from potentially tripping. This is also why devices with inrush are not all turned on at one time, large banks of lights are divided up into zones and powered on/off sequentially and SurgeX offers staged turn on/off in some of it's products as well.

 

[Ron Resnick]

No, not everything is opinion.

I agree! That is why I wrote almost.

 

[Folsom]

In your opinion.

Almost nothing we do in this hobby is susceptible of provable, objective, peer-reviewable, factual analysis.

An electrician measured the in-rush current of my VTL at 30 amps. It does not make sense to me to plug that amplifier into a surge suppressor.

The SurgeX is a voltage suppressor. And as far as I know it wouldn't bat an eye at 30 amps since it's designed to deal with 200 amp turn ons that flip breakers. If you'd expect the SurgeX to be "tripping" at 30 amps, then you'd expect your breakers in the breaker panel to flip to but they don't because that's not how things work. Your VTL in-rush current is actually not that high for their size. You also never listen to in-rush current. The response of the current is more important than the overall current capability anyways. While the SurgeX is series it doesn't use any notable power. The assumption that it'll rob current is a misnomer because OTHER series devices suppress current response but don't often limit it within the operation parameters (but may generate a little heat in the process). Here's the thing, subjectively we can hear the effect. But why I like SurgeX is they compensate for this exact situation be using smart engineering so I have never heard a subjective loss. The SurgeX does not ruin current response. I dare you to demo two of them when you're amps are up and running; I'm sure Dave could provide some stock units to demonstrate at the least.

If everyone wants to believe any form of series anything is negative, I suggest you throw every pieces of equipment you own in the trash because everyone of them using something in series. What separates them in quality is how they do it.

And I want to say I think it's right to be sceptical, since so few products get it right; and sometimes they only get it right for some systems. That's why I like SurgeX, it's not a gamble.

Damn this thread, btw, now I want new power lines to my house

 

[amirm]

I haven't read the whole thread but just had to comment on this. Amir is asking leading questions with an obvious agenda. If his business carries SurgeX then he knows the technical data he asked for is available right on the SurgeX website. So the question is, why play stupid and ask Folsom for it? Hmmm....

You do need to read the whole thread because this is the question I asked:

Give us the db noise reduction at audio frequencies please.

I have bolded the key part. SurgeX, rightfully so, does not provide such specification. I looked up the SurgeX that you modify and sell and it too has their standard specification which stops at 100 KHz: http://espsurgex.com/product/rack-mount/

"EMI/RFI Filter, Normal Mode (50-ohm load): 40 dB @ 100 kHz; 50 dB @ 300 kHz; 50 dB @ 3 MHz; 50 dB @ 30 MHz
EMI/RFI Filter, Common Mode (50-ohm load): 18 dB @ 300 kHz; 30 dB @ 1 MHz; 50 dB @ 5 MHz; 50 dB @ 20 MHZ"

As you see, the lowest is 100 Khz to 300 Khz depending on measurement mode. That is 5 to 15 times higher than audio band.

As I explained earlier the size and cost escalates as you go lower and lower in frequencies and hence the reason they do not invest in such filtering.

IMO that's a good enough reason to put Amir on ignore. IDK about you, but I love it when people ask me questions with the intent of attacking the answers I give instead of just stating their position.

Before I tell you my answer, I like to know if you have information I don't have. In this case Folsom says he is an engineer/technical person so I am expecting him to have made measurements of filtering.

Once he failed to do so, I did provide an answer which is to say if you care about audio frequencies, these devices are not for that. Best place for filtering is in the internal power supply of your audio gear. And that is a section that receives tons of attention from designers. A slip-up there easily shows up in measurements of the audio output of the device. Not so in the case of AC mains.

And there as I mentioned the job is so much easier than trying to filter 340 AC volts at 15 to 20 amps. Here is a simple, schoolyard low voltage regulator for example: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/regulators_noise4_e.html

Just a handful of parts. Now let's look at its measured noise spectrum:

We see that its worst case noise level is -95 db and in the region of our most sensitive hearing range, it goes as low as -110 db! The SurgeX or any other surge protector has no prayer of reaching such low levels. And further, the above measurement is using standard mains input.

Mind you, SurgeX is a fine product. It is just not designed for audio frequency noise removal. If you want to say otherwise let's see some data and engineering explanation of why it works that way instead of just getting angry.

 

[DaveC]

Mind you, SurgeX is a fine product. It is just not designed for audio frequency noise removal. If you want to say otherwise let's see some data and engineering explanation of why it works that way instead of just getting angry.

I just don't have the time to deal with your incredibly misleading statements anymore. You don't have a complete enough understanding or are willfully withholding information that doesn't support your views. I suspect the latter. And I sincerely hope folks reading your posts don't take them as fact and do their own research.