"Delusional Nice People" - Kessler still on a rampage

Excellent point. But even so we enjoy reading about their systems and preferences. And interesting comments and debates sometimes rise from these threads.

Hi Micro,

Yes, of course. It's all data at the end of the day, and if one has an open mind there's lots to learn and appreciate. But comparison in-and-of-itself in no guarantee of anything in cases where the non-linearity of the variables is likely to lead to a lesser observational value, and given a passive/active platform used within a system to attenuate or eliminate "harm" is in itself, another variable introducing a level of volatility that's likely to create an asymmetrical result that cannot be predicted ahead of time, a comparison of two passive/active platforms evaluated via a specific system will mostly give me insight into the comparer, rather than the objects being compared.

Is that still useful? It is in cases when the preferences of the comparer are articulated such that it has utility value for someone else who shares those same preferences, but in cases where that's less true, either because the preferences are dissimilar, or the system topology is dissimilar (i.e., comparison of an active platform under a detached motor belt-driven turntable versus say, a passive transformer-based preamp), the utility value will ultimately be more limited. Useful, and perhaps even entertaining, but limited nonetheless.

Be well, Micro,

853guy
 
The point is, even in their systems, they haven't compared. Preferences aside, it might be found out that some really make a big difference and some minimal. Or not. We will never know. If we had a substantial comparison set, you might see common patterns.

Hi Bonzo,

Correct. As I mentioned to Micro above, given the non-linearity of the variables, an asymmetrical result is the most likely, and therefore, because of its asymmetry, of less observational value. As you suggest, and I wrote above, mostly we find out more about the comparer's preferences, and unless the variables are eliminated or controlled such that the asymmetry of the result can be lessened, the utility value of the comparison remains limited to the specific system and preferences of the comparer.

However, should the comparer have similar preferences, and/or similar (or identical) components, the utility value of the comparison increases in observational value, but again, is ultimately limited to those components, bound within the context of the system itself.

853guy
 
853, I'm the very person doing this active v passive isolation test
However if you're not a fan of my setup, you're hardly going to draw much from my opinions, as you say
This is purely for me, and as a general point of interest on WBF if I post
 
(...) And seriously? Just take a look at the appearance of high-end gear 25 years ago and compare that to some of the chassis designs that are presented nowadays.

By the way, have you noticed how little the look of Spectral amps has changed over that same time period? They are all exclusively about cutting-edge technology, no frills. And compared to some of their competition these days, their prices are extremely reasonable for what they offer (certainly in the US *), their prices in Europe seem to be a different matter). Coincidence? I think not.
__________

*) their top preamp (DMC-30SV) sells for $ 14K, their top monoblocks (DMA-400) for $ 30 K a pair. For the extreme high-end, which these products undoubtedly belong to, this is 'cheap'.

Spectral has little distribution in Europe, some years ago service here was a nightmare, particularly because they refused to sell the components needed for service. A good friend owned it, I have no recent experience with Spectral equipment. I can easily believe it is an excellent brand, some people I respect consider it clinical sounding, and prefer other brands for sonic reasons, nothing else.

Seriously I can not understand which SIGNIFICANT brands you are addressing. I can think about Devialet, Ayre, ARC, cj, VTL, Dartzeel, Atmasphere, D'Agostino - all respectable brands with adequate chassis that have been in my room recently, but can not see they use chassis just for bling - they are typical functional chassis.
 
Paying extra for my speakers to be finished in the colour of my choice (copper) was an aesthetic choice , buying the speakers themselves was sonic choice... I regret neither.
 
Seriously I can not understand which SIGNIFICANT brands you are addressing. I can think about Devialet, Ayre, ARC, cj, VTL, Dartzeel, Atmasphere, D'Agostino - all respectable brands with adequate chassis that have been in my room recently, but can not see they use chassis just for bling - they are typical functional chassis.

D'Agostino? The chassis of the amp driving the Wilson Alexx at AXPONA was pure bling to my eyes (again, you would never have seen such a design 25 years ago). Sound was, partially, spectacular though.
 
853, I'm the very person doing this active v passive isolation test
However if you're not a fan of my setup, you're hardly going to draw much from my opinions, as you say
This is purely for me, and as a general point of interest on WBF if I post

Hey Spirit,

Yeah, I mean, I want to know as many details as possible whenever someone listens to or compares something that has the potential to enhance our enjoyment.

I guess there are two things I’d want to evaluate: 1) the relative observational value (i.e. which one provided the biggest up-side relative to investment and any potential down-side in your particular system), and; 2) the absolute observational value (i.e. which one might provide the biggest up-side relative to investment and any potential down-side in mine and/or another’s particular system). Obviously, those are two very different observations that should not be conflated, and especially so when the component under evaluation is not in the signal chain, its effect is directly related to the component under which it is placed, and results may vary dependent on which component that is.

Nevertheless, as Micro and Bonzo allude to, it’s still all valuable data, and like Bonzo says, because of its rarity, potentially even more valuable, notwithstanding the above caveats.

But anyway, back to Kessler… He writes “But there is a difference: society accepts $2 million cars and $3500 strappy sandals and $1500 fountain pens and $10,000 wines. When it comes to luxury purchases, only audiophiles are scorned or regarded as certifiable. And it’s been this way ever since hi-fi began because of a simple fact: we have always failed to communicate why anyone else should lust after what we lust after. And this has to change.”

Does it? Not to me. That Kessler’s spent most of his adult life writing about the things he lusts after that others don’t - but feels that they “should” - tells me nothing about society and everything about him. There are plenty of things in this life I consider worth purchasing despite their limited utility value, but have zero need to convince someone else they should be appreciated so I feel less “scorned or regarded as certifiable”. I could care a less.

That Kessler does, and feels compelled to write articles about it is perhaps less indicative of an audio industry that “has to change”, and more those of an individual whose predilections and purchases of luxury items need external justification from a society that “accepts $2 million cars and $3500 strappy sandals and $1500 fountain pens and $10,000 wines”. And yet he wonders why high-end manufacturers sell “amplifiers for $100,000 or cables for $20,000”? Maybe because some high-end audio brands are doing exactly what he says he wants - they’re communicating why someone else should lust after what he does.

853guy
 
But anyway, back to Kessler… He writes “But there is a difference: society accepts $2 million cars and $3500 strappy sandals and $1500 fountain pens and $10,000 wines. When it comes to luxury purchases, only audiophiles are scorned or regarded as certifiable. And it’s been this way ever since hi-fi began because of a simple fact: we have always failed to communicate why anyone else should lust after what we lust after. And this has to change.”

Does it? Not to me. That Kessler’s spent most of his adult life writing about the things he lusts after that others don’t - but feels that they “should” - tells me nothing about society and everything about him. There are plenty of things in this life I consider worth purchasing despite their limited utility value, but have zero need to convince someone else they should be appreciated so I feel less “scorned or regarded as certifiable”. I could care a less.

That Kessler does, and feels compelled to write articles about it is perhaps less indicative of an audio industry that “has to change”, and more those of an individual whose predilections and purchases of luxury items need external justification from a society that “accepts $2 million cars and $3500 strappy sandals and $1500 fountain pens and $10,000 wines”. And yet he wonders why high-end manufacturers sell “amplifiers for $100,000 or cables for $20,000”? Maybe because some high-end audio brands are doing exactly what he says he wants - they’re communicating why someone else should lust after what he does.

853guy

I agree... for me, a feeling that something is wrong (with the author) permeates this article. IMO Ken Kessler is a delusional hypocrite just like anyone else bitching about high priced luxury goods they can't afford, while at the same time consuming luxuries at a level that many others might find similarly disturbing. Being judgemental and imposing your own value system on everyone else is not a great idea.

And meanwhile there's a post about a $380k handbag... it's news but there's no hand-wringing ranting about the state of the handbag market and what "outsiders" think about such purchases, questioning the value, etc... People aren't complaining that Hermes is destroying the market. I just don't get the self righteous scorn for what some consider "overpriced" high end audio, other than sour grapes because they can't afford it or it doesn't conform to their personal fantasy about what high end audio should be. The entire concept of overpriced doesn't have much meaning when you're dealing with luxuries and arts. And the presence of expensive "bling" in high end audio doesn't mean you have to buy it, there are other companies making gear more focused on value, just buy from them and live and let live?
 
D'Agostino? The chassis of the amp driving the Wilson Alexx at AXPONA was pure bling to my eyes (again, you would never have seen such a design 25 years ago). Sound was, partially, spectacular though.

D'Agostino Momentum has design and performance. The case is a design work, both aesthetically and functionally - the two metal association and shape controls the resonances of the box particularly well and contributes to the exceptional sound quality. For those who want less "bling" as you consider, he has now cheaper amplifiers - unfortunately IMHO they do not have the sound quality of his masterpieces.

I am a goof friend of people who own the Momentums's - if it was not for the price of the whole system I would probably consider them for myself. I can assure you that they do not care for bling - they are normal people, who share the hobby. And yes, 25 years ago we would never seen such a design - IMHO we should be proud of having it now.

BTW, 20 years ago I owned one of greatest designs in the high end - the complete Primare 200 series, that sounded great. Fortunately when most of the world was producing ugly high end, the danish designers already associated performance and aesthetics. Have you ever seen a Primare 200 series remote?
 
1. Disagree. Many high end purchase decisions have low compare notes - lots of discussions, but low compares. In fact on this forum belief that price equates performance is probably the highest.

2. Disagree. The custom ones which are really good are bought direct, so they are cheaper than the ones that are distributed through channels or shown at Munich. A lot of high prices are just in order to be taken seriously. I got this from at least 2 people in Munich who had introduced high priced stuff this year, that the main reason was to be taken seriously.

Ked,

Sorry, I missed your post.

I expect disagreement from you. You center your audio valuation in short time direct comparison, that I consider misleading. In technical terms you love differentiation, I prefer integration. :)

And singular cases from the people you met at Munich are illustrative of existence, but nothing else. Our main question is where you see a lot, I see a few. Considering this is a subjective hobby, it is expected.

And no, IMHO people belief that properly spent, as most of the time, higher price returns better performance, and act accordingly. They are wise, IMHO.
 
Hey Spirit,

....
But anyway, back to Kessler… He writes “But there is a difference: society accepts $2 million cars and $3500 strappy sandals and $1500 fountain pens and $10,000 wines. When it comes to luxury purchases, only audiophiles are scorned or regarded as certifiable. And it’s been this way ever since hi-fi began because of a simple fact: we have always failed to communicate why anyone else should lust after what we lust after. And this has to change.”

Does it? Not to me. That Kessler’s spent most of his adult life writing about the things he lusts after that others don’t - but feels that they “should” - tells me nothing about society and everything about him. There are plenty of things in this life I consider worth purchasing despite their limited utility value, but have zero need to convince someone else they should be appreciated so I feel less “scorned or regarded as certifiable”. I could care a less.

That Kessler does, and feels compelled to write articles about it is perhaps less indicative of an audio industry that “has to change”, and more those of an individual whose predilections and purchases of luxury items need external justification from a society that “accepts $2 million cars and $3500 strappy sandals and $1500 fountain pens and $10,000 wines”. And yet he wonders why high-end manufacturers sell “amplifiers for $100,000 or cables for $20,000”? Maybe because some high-end audio brands are doing exactly what he says he wants - they’re communicating why someone else should lust after what he does.

853guy


Hi 853,

Economically speaking, what Kessler is saying is that society accepts hard and soft luxury such as watches, cars, designer clothes, etc. But society doesn't seem to accept certain experiential luxury like the pleasure one gets from a high end system. The rationale for that, like I mentioned in a post above, is that if one spends $250K on an Aston Martin Rapide, the guy's family, friends, and neighbors all know he has "arrived in life" because they may "only" drive a BMW. People are proud to show off in fine cars and fine clothes to others. But high end audio is an experience, and when it comes to experiences, they are not valued the same way. This could be that people are experientially impoverished (don't know what it's all about) or have different preferences. I know a lot of ladies in my neighborhood like parties and enjoy treating themselves to spa nights with fine wine, getting their hands and feet done, facials, aromatherapy massages, pussy waxes, etc. But when one lady asked for an exercise headphone recommendation, I recommended a $50 one, yet she ended up buying one for $12...

Most people would think that if a guy had a pair of $250K horns taking over his family living room instead of the Aston Martin in his garage, he is a fukcing wacko...

That's all that Kessler is saying.


In the end, luxury is luxury, and humans enjoy it one form of it or another...
 
Ked,

Sorry, I missed your post.

I expect disagreement from you. You center your audio valuation in short time direct comparison, that I consider misleading. In technical terms you love differentiation, I prefer integration. :)

And singular cases from the people you met at Munich are illustrative of existence, but nothing else. Our main question is where you see a lot, I see a few. Considering this is a subjective hobby, it is expected.

And no, IMHO people belief that properly spent, as most of the time, higher price returns better performance, and act accordingly. They are wise, IMHO.

Hi Microstrip,

I think I understand what you are saying. Yet how do you vet the components that you will be "integrating"? Surely it's not a random process. In effect, haven't you done the legwork that Bonzo is talking about to give you a hunch of what will work well together and what will not?
 
I agree... for me, a feeling that something is wrong (with the author) permeates this article. IMO Ken Kessler is a delusional hypocrite just like anyone else bitching about high priced luxury goods they can't afford, while at the same time consuming luxuries at a level that many others might find similarly disturbing. Being judgemental and imposing your own value system on everyone else is not a great idea.

And meanwhile there's a post about a $380k handbag... it's news but there's no hand-wringing ranting about the state of the handbag market and what "outsiders" think about such purchases, questioning the value, etc... People aren't complaining that Hermes is destroying the market. I just don't get the self righteous scorn for what some consider "overpriced" high end audio, other than sour grapes because they can't afford it or it doesn't conform to their personal fantasy about what high end audio should be. The entire concept of overpriced doesn't have much meaning when you're dealing with luxuries and arts. And the presence of expensive "bling" in high end audio doesn't mean you have to buy it, there are other companies making gear more focused on value, just buy from them and live and let live?

Hi Dave,

Is Kessler entitled to his opinion? Of course. Do I begrudge him articulating it in the way he has? Not really, he’s a writer covering high-end audio and watches. And to his credit, he did write even he struggles to explain why he can justify certain purchases (watches) but finds others an affront to his sensibilities (expensive socks and hipster coffees). He also writes that though the Bugatti Chiron may not be “worth” its purchase price, having visited the factory, he finds it much easier to explain why it might be worth $2 million versus why any cable might be worth $20K, though he omits to say whether the cable manufacturers he might be talking about also received factory visits from himself. He goes on to say the justification for the purchase of luxury items like classic and/or high performance cars, watches and wine comes down mostly to what he believes goes into them (wine less so), and the reality that in those particular cases, those same luxury items tend to appreciate over time (ignoring the fact the materiality of all three does not change, only their rarity value which is a different thing again).

Those are salient points.

But the ultimate value of a car, a watch or a bottle of wine - despite the utility value of each differing greatly - is inherently no different to that of a cartridge or a cable: To bring pleasure and enjoyment to the owner. No piece of wood framed stretched canvas and acrylic is worth more than its materiality. But if perceived as “art”, becomes almost infinitely valuable, such that it can command prices way above those of any luxury car, despite a much greater investment of time, energy and resources into the car. What is the purpose of a high-end audio system? To reproduce art. Therefore, its materiality comes second to its ability to bring enjoyment to the subject, because unlike live music, sculpture, ballet, and the work of Dürer, it is impossible to appreciate the art form of prerecorded music without an intermediary mechanism.

That Kessler’s articulated his world-view - for that’s all it is - is for me, no more or less of a reason to care what other people think of the purchases I make. And it’s certainly no reason to ask other people to adopt his.

caesar said:
Hi 853,

Economically speaking, what Kessler is saying is that society accepts hard and soft luxury such as watches, cars, designer clothes, etc. But society doesn't seem to accept certain experiential luxury like the pleasure one gets from a high end system. The rationale for that, like I mentioned in a post above, is that if one spends $250K on an Aston Martin Rapide, the guy's family, friends, and neighbors all know he has "arrived in life" because they may "only" drive a BMW. People are proud to show off in fine cars and fine clothes to others. But high end audio is an experience, and when it comes to experiences, they are not valued the same way. This could be that people are experientially impoverished (don't know what it's all about) or have different preferences. I know a lot of ladies in my neighborhood like parties and enjoy treating themselves to spa nights with fine wine, getting their hands and feet done, facials, aromatherapy massages, pussy waxes, etc. But when one lady asked for an exercise headphone recommendation, I recommended a $50 one, yet she ended up buying one for $12...

Most people would think that if a guy had a pair of $250K horns taking over his family living room instead of the Aston Martin in his garage, he is a fukcing wacko...

That's all that Kessler is saying.

Hi Caesar,

No, I think he’s saying more than that. He’s says “…this has to change”. And he’s not saying he has to, he’s saying the high-end does, and mostly, because of how it’s perceived by others who scorn his purchases. While I accept many may care about how they’re perceived because of the car they drive, the wine they drink or the watch they wear, or in Kessler’s case, the audio system he’s purchased, I do not.

High-end audio is an experiential pursuit, I agree. But I think society is pretty okay with spending money on ephemeral experiences if the consumption of food, alcohol and overseas travel is anything to go by. Certainly, for wine as Kessler writes, it turns to urine within twenty four hours. His justification for wine is that it appreciates in value, but in fact, once it’s been drunk, it turns to s***, and the value of a bottle of wine is immediately diminished to zero. A high end audio system is fundamentally, as you say, a mechanism by which we experience prerecorded music, and as I mention above, is essential, as we can’t experience prerecorded music without an intermediary mechanism (of whatever cost). The difference is, it will continue to provide value beyond a single album, and in some cases, can provide enjoyment for future generations as many tape-decks and turntables are now doing.

In my perspective, mostly all Kessler is doing it justifying some luxury pursuits and then asking for high-end audio to be taken as seriously because other people consider high-end audio in-and-of-itself to be non-justifiable, though he offers no solutions beyond greater justification for prices he himself cannot justify. Again, obviously what other people think of something he can justify but they cannot and vice versa is a problem for Kessler, but like I say, not for myself. If Kessler hopes his perspective to be adopted, he needs to do more than the arguments he puts forth in the two most recent articles he’s penned, the problem being that rather than Kessler’s perspective being too narrow, it’s actually not narrow enough, and his over-generalising across experiences, materiality and utility value, and failure to take into account longevity of experience/enjoyment, undermines his argument, and for me, only confirms a world-view that holds the problem is always someone or something else, allowing him to continue to hold onto his, despite its many contradictions.

Be well, gentlemen.

853guy
 
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Most people would think that if a guy had a pair of $250K horns taking over his family living room instead of the Aston Martin in his garage, he is a fukcing wacko...

That's all that Kessler is saying.

I don't think so, the title is "Delusional Nice People" who make expensive audio gear. IMO there's a lot of questionable logic behind holding this point of view.
 
D'Agostino? The chassis of the amp driving the Wilson Alexx at AXPONA was pure bling to my eyes (again, you would never have seen such a design 25 years ago). Sound was, partially, spectacular though.

Dagostino sound great. If I had the money to buy a big place, and two momentums, I would use either them or boulder to biamp full ranges. Will never happen. Because if I.have that money I will buy two other places and rent them out.
 
Dagostino sound great. If I had the money to buy a big place, and two momentums, I would use either them or boulder to biamp full ranges. Will never happen. Because if I.have that money I will buy two other places and rent them out.

Do you think that Boulder can provide the liquidity that D'Agostino has?
 
(...) Economically speaking, what Kessler is saying is that society accepts hard and soft luxury such as watches, cars, designer clothes, etc. But society doesn't seem to accept certain experiential luxury like the pleasure one gets from a high end system. (...)

IMHO society simply does not care about the high-end or its prices. But audio writers and a few audiophiles love to write about what they imagine what the society things about it ... Kessler is skilled audio writer and gets paid by the word, he writes more than most others. He seems to be successful, we are debating his words ...

Also IMHO the most negative image the society gets from audiophiles is not from high prices, but from unsuccessful or disappointed audiophiles that propagate the message of the obsessive, always unhappy guy. If you are a happy audiophile, that enjoy the system and the hobby, no one will ask or thing about the price.
 
Kessler misses the point that some of us are OCD. What would we all do if our systems could no longer improve...probably buy some more. The "fix" is in.
 

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