Digital Props Part II

[Orb]

Hi Orb,

The thing is, I was answering Marks comment a few posts up. And by using a SET amp, in particular, I was showing that folks (some, many, whatever) DO prefer distortions added to their "accurate" plain old stereo recordings. I think it proves, that atleast for those folks, analog distortions do matter and do enhance their illusion. My claim was, and is, that many of the distortions in the analog domain, including allthe tape stuff, and cartridge on lp, as well as something that no doubt adds tons of distortion products, can all add up to enjoyment for many. That was my position answered in the post.

Likewise, I can claim that a SET amp might allow more enjoyment of a redbook CD for many. But it all leads back to the weaknesses of stereo as a illusion maker to start with.

And, the biggee, preferences.

Agreed, not all tube electronics has high distortions...you can take a triode down to 0.0005% distortion with enough feedback, as well as a solid state device.


Tom

I agree how SETs behave is very interesting and makes for a good discussion, I just wanted to qualify that the statement about distortion and SETs was too generic while also excluding those that break the rule.
This is like saying a SET tube that distorts is more liked, yet other tube amps that distort that are liked is not due to distortion because it is specific to SET designs, and tubes that do not distort but are well liked do not count if they are not SETs

The problem is that it is not possible to distinguish in the way you do unless wanting to win an debate, and then one has to ignore the discrepencies on cases as shown where distortion is not chosen in the way as suggested, which break any proposed model.

The discrepency being the statement suggesting that it is the distortion listeners go for when identifying product enjoyment.
SET is a subset of such a statement.

As an example, I could say listeners go for SETs because of their specific output impedance characteristics.
This is as correct as the distortion statement, but again is too much of a generalisation and can be broken when considering other designs-products out there.

With this said, I do agree that distortion can influence the presentation of music but the problem is no-one has done a good enough study looking at specific harmonic distortion patterns and listening perception.
There is only one that I know looked specifically at distortion patterns and this was not enough IMO but more food for thought and more anecdotal (Lynn Olson).

Hence why I feel such statements need to be qualified as being too generic and need further investigation and clarification, however I appreciate you and a few others may disagree and thats great as we are coming at this from different perspectives.
Apologies for derailing the thread.

Cheers
Orb

 

[RBFC]

And to support these statements, you've listened to every recording that has ever been made? ;-)

Dan,

There haven't been many (if any others I know of) full orchestral versions of the piece, so I felt comfortable in that statement. I also said PROBABLY.

Are your arms tired yet from continual pot-stirring?

Lee

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Dan,

There haven't been many (if any others I know of) full orchestral versions of the piece, so I felt comfortable in that statement. I also said PROBABLY.

Are your arms tired yet from continual pot-stirring?

Lee

I'd expect the smell is getting to him by now. It's not like anyone claimed the unqualified superiority of one technology over another, Dan. Someone expressed admiration for a performance. I think it's pretty easy to assume that was an opinion.

Tim

 

[Old Listener]

There haven't been many (if any others I know of) full orchestral versions of the piece, so I felt comfortable in that statement. I also said PROBABLY.

Asturias is one piece from Albeniz's Suite Espanola written for piano.

From the ArkivMusic listing

" Suite española, Op. 47 by Isaac Albeniz
Conductor: Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos
Orchestra/Ensemble: New Philharmonia Orchestra
Period: Romantic
Written: 1886; Madrid, Spain

Notes: Orchestrated: Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos "

I think this orchestrated version was his specialty.

Here is the listing of Suite Espanola recordings on ArkivMusic

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=138&name_role1=1&comp_id=15705&bcorder=15

I see only the one orchestral performance with FIM and Decca CD versions available.

Bill

 

[RBFC]

Interaction on the net comes in a variety of demeanors, doesn't it?

Lee

 

[Old Listener]

Interaction on the net comes in a variety of demeanors, doesn't it?

Lee

And mis-demeanors!

Bill

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hence why I feel such statements need to be qualified as being too generic and need further investigation and clarification

I don't think it's likely that you'll ever get sufficient study of why some audiophiles perceive tube amp (SET or otherwise) reproduction to be superior in spite of they objectively inferior performance of most examples. I can't think of a single entity out there with the resources to conduct such a study that would be served by even acknowledging that the performance of most tube gear is objectively inferior. Or to put it directly - who with any depth of pocket, other than a well-heeled tube amp manufacturer, would be interested in such a study?

Then what about the solid state amps that also hit those figures of 0.1 to 0.3 Frank?
BTW those figures I gave are real figures against frequency range and also power via each of the taps.

But more importantly, what about tube preamps that do have excellent measurements and are accepted as being in the elite group.

I think the answer here is obvious: As tube amps approach those kinds of low distortion figures, and similar output impedance figures and have similar headroom as the SS amps they're being compared to, the differences between them will diminish. I believe, in fact, that they can probably be perceptually erased entirely, but that would be at great cost on the tube side of the comparison.

We need a Carver challenge for the tube side of the equation, a brilliant designer to put together an all-tube amp with the low distortion, flat FR, low ouput impedance, excellent transient response and driver control, and the headroom of a really good solid state amp. It doesn't even have to be an esoteric one. A Bryston or even an Emotiva would do. Match it spec for spec, then conduct controlled listening tests to see what experienced listeners hear. Or maybe this amp already exists, has already been thoroughly measured, and only the listening tests are left undone. I'd love to see them done. I'd love to know -- when a tube amp equals the performance metrics of a SOTA ss amp and is running all the same gear, is there still something extra there that people would hear without bias? And if yes, what is the cost?

Tim

 

[garylkoh]

Asturias is one piece from Albeniz's Suite Espanola written for piano.

From the ArkivMusic listing

" Suite española, Op. 47 by Isaac Albeniz
Conductor: Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos
Orchestra/Ensemble: New Philharmonia Orchestra
Period: Romantic
Written: 1886; Madrid, Spain

Notes: Orchestrated: Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos "

I think this orchestrated version was his specialty.

Here is the listing of Suite Espanola recordings on ArkivMusic

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=138&name_role1=1&comp_id=15705&bcorder=15

I see only the one orchestral performance with FIM and Decca CD versions available.

Bill

I think that this one is the one to get..... Mastered by Bernie Grundman and pressed at RTI.
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ORGLP0100-45

The FIM XRCD24 is also very good.

But of course, the best version is by The Doors

 

[mauidan]

Dan,

There haven't been many (if any others I know of) full orchestral versions of the piece, so I felt comfortable in that statement. I also said PROBABLY.

Are your arms tired yet from continual pot-stirring?

Lee

I could see that the "probably" applied to your first statement:

"de Burgos' version of Asturias will probably never bematched."

Your other statement, "The brass punctuations are some of the most exciting moments in all of recorded music,” implies that you have compared it to every recording ever made. ;-)

I wasn't trying to stir this pot, there are plenty of other pot stirrers on WBF that love to prolong threads like this one.

 

[RBFC]

I could see that the "probably" applied to your first statement:

"de Burgos' version of Asturias will probably never bematched."

Your other statement, "The brass punctuations are some of the most exciting moments in all of recorded music,” implies that you have compared it to every recording ever made. ;-)

I wasn't trying to stir this pot, there are plenty of other pot stirrers on WBF that love to prolong threads like this one.

It's all just my opinion, not posted in green, and I could care less if anyone agrees. Have you listened to the recording in question?

Lee

 

[Ron Party]

It's all just my opinion, not posted in green, and I could care less if anyone agrees.

Hey, wait a sec! I'd like to listen to this one. I trust your opinion.

 

[Old Listener]

I think that this one is the one to get..... Mastered by Bernie Grundman and pressed at RTI.
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ORGLP0100-45

The FIM XRCD24 is also very good.

$ 55 for 38 minutes of music, wow! Even $ 32 for the FIM CD seems more than I want to pay for that much music.

I bought the Decca Classic Sound CD for $ 10-13 to get the El Amor Brujo performance. With the Suite Espanola orchestration and the Goyescas: Intermezzo, that CD contains 78+ minutes of music.

Bill Hunt

 

[fas42]

Then what about the solid state amps that also hit those figures of 0.1 to 0.3 Frank?
BTW those figures I gave are real figures against frequency range and also power via each of the taps.

But more importantly, what about tube preamps that do have excellent measurements and are accepted as being in the elite group.
Distortion can only be considered if it works for all relevant scenarios in ones statement - yours now expanding that to coloration.
Cheers
Orb

Remember, colouration is just another word for distortion, describing more a "style" of distortion than anything else: we usually use the word distortion when it is downright objectionable, where it is obviously at odds with the musical performance; colouration on the other hand is still definitely distortion, but frequently it is "nice" distortion, it "harmonises" with the recording.

SS has always had the problem that it tends to produce objectionable distortion when it goes off the rails, valve, tube circuitry typically is significantly less obnoxious when it misbehaves. But the key thing is that published distortion figures have to be taken with a huge grain of salt, they are taken in idealised conditions, with a perfect load, and when working with an unvarying input. In other words, that is a measurement of performance in ideal conditions, which is a long, long way from what happens in the home; the distortion figures I mentioned are those the equipment would need to meet in the real world of replay of music for the sound to be "uncoloured".

Frank

 

[fas42]

I wasn't trying to stir this pot, there are plenty of other pot stirrers on WBF that love to prolong threads like this one.

Yes, it's one of those really irritating things here, these people who have strong ideas about things who keep piping up ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, it's one of those really irritating things here, these people who have strong ideas about things who keep piping up ...

Frank

Yes. Discussion on a discussion board is so annoying....

Tim

 

[mep]

And to think I started this thread because I wanted to give props to some digital recordings I heard...

 

[Ron Party]

No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

And to think I started this thread because I wanted to give props to some digital recordings I heard...

Yeah, that's another thing about open discussion; it tends to drift.

Tim

 

[mep]

No good deed goes unpunished.

Ron-I use that line all the time because it’s so true. Every day you read the paper about some good Samaritan who pulls over on the highway to help someone change a tire and he gets whacked by a semi. Two weeks ago not far from where I live a mother was following her daughter as her daughter was on the way to drop off a van at a junkyard. The daughter had just enough gas in the van to make it to the junkyard. The daughter missed the turn to the junkyard and ran out of gas. Mother and daughter pulled over on the shoulder of the road. The house they pulled in front of had a good Samaritan inside. He came out to the road to see how he could help when along came a dump truck and he hit both cars, the mother, daughter, and good Samaritan and killed all three of them. It was tragic.

 

[RBFC]

Mark,

I am partially responsible for drifting the thread. Sorry. For what it's worth, the only copy I now have of the Albeniz pieces is on CD, transferred to my server. The digital sounds very good indeed.

Lee