Dire Straits - Love Over Gold -------- Masterpiece?

[LL21]

No I haven't Lloyd How many copies of KOB can one have??? OTOH, the K2HD or even XRCD were well done in general.

Did Bruce remaster the KOB?

Thanks, Myles. BTW, i just stuck an Artesania Audio damper plate on top of the CJ GAT...smokes. i like what it does and remember your comments about isolation on the GAT.

 

[mep]

Very early stereo (1957). Most jazz albums were like that until Art Pepper Plus 11 where they finally discovered that middle, phantom channel. Early Blue Notes, Riversides, Prestige are also much like that. You can listen around that though. Manne and Brown sound wonderful too. Do you have the 45 rpm reissue?

I’m a huge fan of WOW and wrote some stuff about how outstanding of a recording I think it is many moons ago on this forum. I got some blowback from people who don’t share my high opinion of it, but I can’t help it if some people can’t hear what I hear. I’m pretty sure I said something to the effect that most modern recording engineers should hang their heads in shame after hearing what was laid down in 1957 on WOW. If you can listen to an analog copy of WOW and tell me with a straight face that you are not blown away (again, I don’t have it on the digits and I don’t know how much of the sound was captured), I can tell you with a straight face that you need to load up your stereo system and haul it down to your local Goodwill store because it’s junk. It’s time to start over and see if you can get it right this time. Is this where I should insert a smiley face?

 

[Bill Hart]

I’m a huge fan of WOW and wrote some stuff about how outstanding of a recording I think it is many moons ago on this forum. I got some blowback from people who don’t share my high opinion of it, but I can’t help it if some people can’t hear what I hear. I’m pretty sure I said something to the effect that most modern recording engineers should hang their heads in shame after hearing what was laid down in 1957 on WOW. If you can listen to an analog copy of WOW and tell me with a straight face that you are not blown away (again, I don’t have it on the digits and I don’t know how much of the sound was captured), I can tell you with a straight face that you need to load up your stereo system and haul it down to your local Goodwill store because it’s junk. It’s time to start over and see if you can get it right this time. Is this where I should insert a smiley face?

Can you help me load the truck?
The hard panning doesn't sound unnatural to you?
Granted, the instruments themselves sound good, but it is not a coherent picture of where they were situated.

 

[mep]

The "hard panning" doesn't bother me one bit. The recording 'works' and it sounds realistic in a way that damn few modern recordings do. I don't get the same effect from the panning that I do from say an early Beatles recording in 'stereo' where all of the voices are in the left channel and all of the instruments are in the right channel. This is not even an issue for me with WOW. So yeah, I'll come and help you load up your gear.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I listened to KOB last night on tape, and I can assure you that there is nothing “subtle” about the dynamic swings on this tape. Here are some notes I jotted down last night while I was listening:

Brushes on the snare drum sound really nice meaning they sound realistic. The trumpet overloads the microphone in some places on the first cut. Big dynamic contrasts by the way and the recording sounds very powerful. The difference in the sound of the cymbals when the drummer switches from brushes to sticks is dramatic and the sound of the cymbals when struck by the drumstick is very real sounding and the sound they captured of the cymbals is simply outstanding. The sound of the cymbals being struck is almost startling and there is lots of air coming off the cymbals.

KOB is a very intimate sounding studio recording that captures the beauty of each instrument. The piano sounds very real as do all of the brass instruments and the bass. With the exception of the overloading issues in a few spots that reminds you that you are listening to a recording, KOB is really an outstanding recording both musically and sound wise and sounds very alive with great dynamic range.

I don’t have a digital copy of KOB so I really can’t comment on how it sounds after being converted to digital. Somewhere in my CD collection I have an SACD sampler disc that came with my Sony SACD player many years ago that has a cut from KOB on it, but I can’t pull the trigger on dragging out one of my SACD players to listen to it. I remember the whole sampler disc as being pretty horrid sounding.

I hear all of that, Mark, I just wouldn't call any of it "big dynamic swings," and I would, without hesitation, place and = between this...

KOB is a very intimate sounding studio

...and "subtle." As I suspected, this is a semantic difference.

Tim

 

[mep]

I hear all of that, Mark, I just wouldn't call any of it "big dynamic swings," and I would, without hesitation, place and = between this...



...and "subtle." As I suspected, this is a semantic difference.

Tim

Well, I don't know if our descriptions are really close or that I'm describing a horse and you are describing an elephant. One thing that I have noticed on many digital recordings that give them away as being digital recordings is the sound of cymbals. Cymbals on many digital recordings sound splashy and tizzy. The sound is so bad you don't know whether to laugh or cry. The sound of the cymbal work on KOB sounds 'just right' to these ears and I don't think the dynamic shifts between the brushwork and stick work is subtle as I mentioned earlier. How this translated over to the digits I have no idea.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I’m a huge fan of WOW and wrote some stuff about how outstanding of a recording I think it is many moons ago on this forum. I got some blowback from people who don’t share my high opinion of it, but I can’t help it if some people can’t hear what I hear. I’m pretty sure I said something to the effect that most modern recording engineers should hang their heads in shame after hearing what was laid down in 1957 on WOW. If you can listen to an analog copy of WOW and tell me with a straight face that you are not blown away (again, I don’t have it on the digits and I don’t know how much of the sound was captured), I can tell you with a straight face that you need to load up your stereo system and haul it down to your local Goodwill store because it’s junk. It’s time to start over and see if you can get it right this time. Is this where I should insert a smiley face?

Yes, this is where you should do that. I'm in agreement with both of you guys. I should run for office. I think the tonality of WOW is great from the little percussive clicks and pops at the opening of "I'm An Old Cowhand," to the full-bodied breath of Sonny's sax....etc., etc., etc.

And yeah, I think the hard panning is unnatural to the point of annoying.

Probably my biggest issue with it, now that I listen to it again, is I just don't think it holds up, musically, to Sonny's best work. I'm sure there are many who would disagree, but that's my opinion. The Bridge, for example, has the same hard panning. I don't find it as distracting because I like the music better.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, I don't know if our descriptions are really close or that I'm describing a horse and you are describing an elephant. One thing that I have noticed on many digital recordings that give them away as being digital recordings is the sound of cymbals. Cymbals on many digital recordings sound splashy and tizzy. The sound is so bad you don't know whether to laugh or cry. The sound of the cymbal work on KOB sounds 'just right' to these ears and I don't think the dynamic shifts between the brushwork and stick work is subtle as I mentioned earlier. How this translated over to the digits I have no idea.

Well, coming from someone who stands in a room with a real drum kit every week, it translated well. I find that cymbals on analog media are often soft. It's easy enough to listen to; doesn't make me want to laugh or cry. It just doesn't sound like real cymbals.

Tim

 

[mep]

Well, coming from someone who stands in a room with a real drum kit every week, it translated well. I find that cymbals on analog media are often soft. It's easy enough to listen to; doesn't make me want to laugh or cry. It just doesn't sound like real cymbals.

Tim

Uh Tim, since you don’t own any capability to play back analog, are you relying on your memories of how cymbals sound based on memories of your Thorens turntable that you recently gave the heave-ho to after sitting broken in your closet for many years or would this be newer analog memories?

Cymbal sound on analog is going to sound like however it was recorded. If they were recorded soft (or well down in the mix), that’s how it will sound. I don’t know if I have any jazz LPs that I would characterize the sound of the cymbals as being soft. In essence, I think your characterization of the sound of cymbals captured by analog is misguided and incorrect.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Uh Tim, since you don’t own any capability to play back analog, are you relying on your memories of how cymbals sound based on memories of your Thorens turntable that you recently gave the heave-ho to after sitting broken in your closet for many years or would this be newer analog memories?

Was that a question? I doubt it, but I'll treat it as such. No, the memory I'm relying on is about a month old, at the home of a friend who has nearly bought himself a divorce with his investment in analog. And when I say "soft," when referring to cymbals and vinyl, I'm not talking about their relative volume in the mix, I'm talking about their impact -- how they attack and cut through. How much they have the intrusive quality of actual cymbals being played at reasonably close range.

And while we're talking about relative listening experiences, Mark, you're right that I don't have the gear at home to compare analog and digital on a daily basis. When was the last time you heard a real, unamplified drum kit in a room no bigger than your listening room, so you could compare any playback experience to the sound of an actual cymbal being struck? Is that a point of reference you experience on a weekly basis? Monthly? Annual? No?

Well then, I guess your opinions regarding the reproduction of real instruments does not have to be considered valid then? Isn't that your argument carried to its next logical step?

Tim

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles, you weren't kidding about the KOB OOP being a little pricey. I found one on E-Bay for $249.00 w/blue vinyl 180 gram that is still sealed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Miles-Davis...=928219316779141837&pid=100011&prg=1005&rk=3&

Is this the one you were talking about?

Tom

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/8027/Miles_Davis-Kind_of_Blue-200_Gram_Vinyl_Record

 

[mep]

Tim-my brother plays in a band and I have had many up close and personal experiences standing very close to the drum kit while it is being played and I have described the experience of hearing a drum kit live before when I talked about how our recording mediums still don't come close to capturing all that there is to be heard with a live drum kit. So yeah, that is a sound that is ingrained in my sonic memory.

As for how the sound of a drum kit recorded on analog captures the sound of the attack and the way the cymbals sound like they are literally cutting through the air, I damn sure don't know of any recording method that can currently capture it better than analog. Please list one standout drum piece recorded digitally that sounds better than analog does as a whole.

I know of no musical genre that captures the sound of drums more accurately and convincingly than early jazz does and does it so consistently from recording to recording. I hear plenty of attack and I hear the air being cut by the cymbals. Does it sound just like standing next to a drum kit being played live? Of course not because nothing does and we are just not there yet (and maybe never will be) in terms of being able to capture that type of dynamic range.

If I had to speak in terms of generalities, I would say that analog captures the sound of drums and cymbals very convincingly and sometimes shockingly so. On the other hand, lots of digital recordings make cymbals sound like anything but cymbals. Cymbals don’t make a Tsssst sound when struck. Cymbals don’t sound tizzy or splashy when struck or brushed, but lots of digital makes them sound this way. I don’t remember what digital recording I was listening to last night after KOB, but I jotted down in my notes in all capital letters: CYMBALS DON’T SOUND RIGHT!

 

[treitz3]

Thanks Myles.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks Myles.

Or you can wait for this:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/84530/Miles_Davis-Kind_of_Blue-45_RPM_Vinyl_Record

 

[DaveyF]

Or you can wait for this:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/84530/Miles_Davis-Kind_of_Blue-45_RPM_Vinyl_Record

Or you could bid on this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-MILES-D...ic_on_Vinyl&hash=item1e70808f4b#ht_500wt_1413

The future issue on MFSL looks to be a winner, that's the one I'm looking at next.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim-my brother plays in a band and I have had many up close and personal experiences standing very close to the drum kit while it is being played and I have described the experience of hearing a drum kit live

Yes, but does your brother's band live in your house? Can you compare the sound of your brother's band to your analog and digital sources on demand? And if you can't, does that make your opinions regarding live sound vs recorded (regardless of medium) invalid? Because that's the argument you've been making against anyone who doesn't have an analogue source in their system. Do you want me to quote you to yourself?

before when I talked about how our recording mediums still don't come close to capturing all that there is to be heard with a live drum kit. So yeah, that is a sound that is ingrained in my sonic memory.

Yeah, I remember, but based on the (il)logic of your arguments here, most recently alluded to a couple of posts up, your sonic memory isn't enough and your comparisons of live to reproduction are invalid because you lack the necessary daily experience to compare them.

As for how the sound of a drum kit recorded on analog captures the sound of the attack and the way the cymbals sound like they are literally cutting through the air, I damn sure don't know of any recording method that can currently capture it better than analog. Please list one standout drum piece recorded digitally that sounds better than analog does as a whole.

Are we talking about recording media? I thought we were talking about playback -- Sonny's old analog recordings on vinyl vs digital. You're heading down a whole other path, now...but no matter, neither of us have a drum kit in our listening rooms to make the daily comparison, so our experience is insufficient by your standards.

If I had to speak in terms of generalities, I would say that analog captures the sound of drums and cymbals very convincingly and sometimes shockingly so. On the other hand, lots of digital recordings make cymbals sound like anything but cymbals.

If I had to speak in terms of generalities, and we were talking about recordings, not playback media, I'd say there are crappy analog recordings of drums from the 60s and great digital recordings of drums from the 2000s and vice versa.

Cymbals don’t make a Tsssst sound when struck. Cymbals don’t sound tizzy or splashy when struck or brushed, but lots of digital makes them sound this way.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by tssst and tizzy and splashy. I do know that percussion is a very challenging thing to record, that it is wrong pretty often....well, I think that, but I guess until I get a drum kit in my listening room I can't be sure.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

Or you could bid on this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-MILES-D...ic_on_Vinyl&hash=item1e70808f4b#ht_500wt_1413

The future issue on MFSL looks to be a winner, that's the one I'm looking at next.

It will be interesting to see what the Columbia on E-bay winds up selling for.

 

[DaveyF]

What will hold it back is the condition of the cover that the seller disclosed. However, for someone interested in hearing a 'supposedly' near mint condition copy this could be a very good opportunity. I suspect most collector's will take a pass.
A question to Myles...have you heard any of the original Prestige 50th street recordings of Miles or Sonny or? Thoughts?

 

[MylesBAstor]

What will hold it back is the condition of the cover that the seller disclosed. However, for someone interested in hearing a 'supposedly' near mint condition copy this could be a very good opportunity. I suspect most collector's will take a pass.
A question to Myles...have you heard any of the original Prestige 50th street recordings of Miles or Sonny or? Thoughts?

No I haven't Could you enlighten me?

 

[DaveyF]

Myles, I think you need to get your hands on one of these pressings..IMHO they are some of the VERY best recordings of jazz ever put down onto vinyl. Unfortunately, they are HIGHLY prized by collector's today and you will pay to play.