Yes I understand that, I was meaning that it's now going to get wider view potentially from people that bought other Mofi LPs (they used to be $30) that haven't heard of this fiasco yet; wider attention increases the chances of someone taking some form of action.
We're in the middle of looking to move across the country, sell our houses, and looking for a replacement for myself at my practice otherwise I would have been more serious about the time commitment it requires.
This is very true if you're buying or trading some of these dubious "master tape copies" that show up in trading circles. But if you're buying from the likes of Tape Project or Analogue Productions you're getting copies of a tape made from the master. Both of these companies make tapes that sound far better than any LP I've heard including original early stamper Living Stereos.
In digital pressings there is an inevitable loss of focus to the sound - timing becomes ever so slightly blurred - so simple things like a rim strike on a drum lacks the immediacy and *snap* that you hear on AAA, so they sound fake. Or say Maxwell's Silver Hammer clangs on Abbey Road don't have the same surprising attack as they do on AAA.
We (me and a couple of my friends) are calling it “plastic sound” cause we get a feeling like instruments are made of plastic. Especially drum and horns.
That “plastic sound” feeling for me is more apparent when listening usb dacs. It’s a kind of barrier reducing involvement with music. You get caught by the song skipping behavior in 30sec intervals.
I don’t mean all dacs sound plastic or digital music is bad. Those are just my observations but your mileage may vary.
I mean all the analog purists are screaming for more transparency right now, very understandable of course, but who’s gonna control what they put on the sleeve or booklet is actually how it’s been done in that exact order and this for each and every future release from all these different companies?
But if you're buying from the likes of Tape Project or Analogue Productions you're getting copies of a tape made from the master. Both of these companies make tapes that sound far better than any LP I've heard including original early stamper Living Stereos.
I cannot agree with this. I heard one clear example myself in a direct comparison on a very well-known and amazing system of a classical title where the 45RPM sounded noticeably better than the Analogue Productions tape. Maybe this tape was a fluke? Who knows.
I feel very strongly, and I have posted many times, and in my interview with him Greg Beron agreed, that just because a title is on tape doesn’t tell us anything dispositive about its sound quality.
We (me and a couple of my friends) are calling it “plastic sound” cause we get a feeling like instruments are made of plastic. Especially drum and horns.
That “plastic sound” feeling for me is more apparent when listening usb dacs. It’s a kind of barrier reducing involvement with music. You get caught by the song skipping behavior in 30sec intervals.
I don’t mean all dacs sound plastic or digital music is bad. Those are just my observations but your mileage may vary.
Totally agree on "plastic sound"! Glad I'm not the only one complaining about this!
I hear it from a lot -- but not from all -- digital streaming and computer audio in general. There's also this synthetic, "plastic" solo violin sound, yuck. That's why I still prefer my physical CD transport which, in concert with a reclocker before the signal goes into the DAC, does not give me that problem at all (and no, it doesn't use USB either).
I have a strong allergy against computer audio plasticky sound. If I would want to go computer audio it probably would have to be an expensive solution in order to be able to fully avoid this phenomenon, money that I do not want to spend. My guess is that a lot of the bad rep that digital gets is from suboptimal computer audio. If not embracing computer audio for high-end puts me behind the times, so be it.
What’s the point? To pass on knowledge. To educate. None of us arrived at this hobby fully informed. We all benefitted from the experiences of others. Most of us still do. This MoFi issue is a fine example of how none of us were fully informed until recently….
And because there’s a huge availability of AAA on the secondary markets.
So, they may not care today, but tomorrow, who knows…
I am also in the camp that they don't care. Just my opinion but I think in general young folks ( sure there are exceptions) don't have the financial wherewithal for and/or interest in the level of equipment that the nature of the release is going to matter to them . And, here again I am sure there are exceptions, but the are genres of music they are inclined to listen to going to be AAA sourced? I'll go one step further , there are a lot of mid/older folks that likely don't care either . I don't have the level of gear that some folks on here have , but most people I know shake there heads and think I'm nuts for what i have invested, so they wouldn't be inclined to care either about the basis of the recording. Just me 2 cents.
The whole vinyl resurgence movement abuses from the word analog and keeps consumers in the ignorance. Vinyl is being equated in a subliminal way with the old analog sound. No one interested in knowing the truth, except a few audio forum members ...
IMHO the industry is not interested in promoting such wars. Even the subjective audiophile community is not interested in admitting that in the absence of knowledge they were not able to proper identify the digital stage for long years - they had to wait for an inner whistleblower. Do you notice that no one is still able to say with 100% certitude wich MoFi issues are not pure analog?
The whole vinyl resurgence movement abuses from the word analog and keeps consumers in the ignorance. Vinyl is being equated in a subliminal way with the old analog sound. No one interested in knowing the truth, except a few audio forum members ...
IMHO the industry is not interested in promoting such wars. Even the subjective audiophile community is not interested in admitting that in the absence of knowledge they were not able to proper identify the digital stage for long years - they had to wait for an inner whistleblower. Do you notice that no one is still able to say with 100% certitude wich MoFi issues are not pure analog?
I think some took notice that MoFi wasn’t their cup of tea a while back and stopped purchasing it. I know we did - though I had no idea they were using digital to get their sound. It just didn’t sound right to us …
This said, how many other labels are doing the same or similar things? Can we trust anyone producing vinyl today? Maybe all we have left is the old stuff made many moons ago?
I think some took notice that MoFi wasn’t their cup of tea a while back and stopped purchasing it. I know we did - though I had no idea they were using digital to get their sound. It just didn’t sound right to us …
Not being their cup of tea is not the same thing as a complete failure to identify the terrible enemy ... Are you telling us that the" house sound" of MoFi only shows in issues having a DSD256 step?
BTW, some people in this forum dislike 99.99% of the re-issues!
This said, how many other labels are doing the same or similar things? Can we trust anyone producing vinyl today? Maybe all we have left the old stuff made many moons ago?
There was a similar problem long ago with HiRez - some people were issuing oversampled redbook as HiRez. The digital audiophile community reacted fast - they analyzed the files with their spectrometers and identified the guilty recordings - some sites even kept lists of them. For some time I checked my HDtracks downloads, fortunately never had any problem . I am sure that if the analog community had looked with instruments to these recordings they would have found evidence of this DSD step or simply identified the absence of an extra analog tape step.
Not being their cup of tea is not the same thing as a complete failure to identify the terrible enemy ... Are you telling us that the" house sound" of MoFi only shows in issues having a DSD256 step?
BTW, some people in this forum dislike 99.99% of the re-issues!
There was a similar problem long ago with HiRez - some people were issuing oversampled redbook as HiRez. The digital audiophile community reacted fast - they analyzed the files with their spectrometers and identified the guilty recordings - some sites even kept lists of them. For some time I checked my HDtracks downloads, fortunately never had any problem . I am sure that if the analog community had looked with instruments to these recordings they would have found evidence of this DSD step or simply identified the absence of an extra analog tape step.
Kedar and I were lucky enough to visit the General’s home on many occasions where were listened to originals vs reissues. I can’t think of a single situation where the original wasn’t substantially preferred. It was very easy to tell.
Actually I think it is a very good system test to see how discriminating one’s hifi is.
Kedar and I were lucky enough to visit the General’s home on many occasions where were listened to originals vs reissues. I can’t think of a single situation where the original wasn’t substantially preferred. It was very easy to tell.
Actually I think it is a very good system test to see how discriminating one’s hifi is.
Not being their cup of tea is not the same thing as a complete failure to identify the terrible enemy ... Are you telling us that the" house sound" of MoFi only shows in issues having a DSD256 step?
BTW, some people in this forum dislike 99.99% of the re-issues!
There was a similar problem long ago with HiRez - some people were issuing oversampled redbook as HiRez. The digital audiophile community reacted fast - they analyzed the files with their spectrometers and identified the guilty recordings - some sites even kept lists of them. For some time I checked my HDtracks downloads, fortunately never had any problem . I am sure that if the analog community had looked with instruments to these recordings they would have found evidence of this DSD step or simply identified the absence of an extra analog tape step.
What I meant by “cup of tea” is that some identified something wrong with MoFi vinyl. They may not have known what, but it was off.
This said, fakes can be excellent. I know when we were tracking down a particular counterfeiter (also involved in a murder) in the 80s his counterfeit bills for that day and time were works of art. We could only tell his fakes by putting them under a scope.
I feel confident the same is even more possible in audio recordings. There were far too many vinylphiles that were fooled by MoFi’s misbehavior for this not to be the case. Think of all the effort that went into this Pinocchio vinyl. Someone knew that if was ever discovered that there would be various consequences to pay. So they made excellent fakes!
Overall I think most of the audiophile community is a trusting sort. They want to believe the best in everyone. But when you begin with that presupposition it makes it easier to be conned. MoFi had a reputation that could be trusted. No one expected they would pull what I would call a con job …
I think now many will not be as trusting. We stopped purchasing CDs from Amazon long ago when I discovered they were sending me CDRs instead of real albums. We sent them back and stopped purchasing CDs from them …
Totally agree on "plastic sound"! Glad I'm not the only one complaining about this!
I hear it from a lot -- but not from all -- digital streaming and computer audio in general. There's also this synthetic, "plastic" solo violin sound, yuck. That's why I still prefer my physical CD transport which, in concert with a reclocker before the signal goes into the DAC, does not give me that problem at all (and no, it doesn't use USB either).
I have a strong allergy against computer audio plasticky sound. If I would want to go computer audio it probably would have to be an expensive solution in order to be able to fully avoid this phenomenon, money that I do not want to spend. My guess is that a lot of the bad rep that digital gets is from suboptimal computer audio. If not embracing computer audio for high-end puts me behind the times, so be it.
I don't understand the outrage over the digital master discovery when MoFi never made any AAA claims in their materials, people just assumed and we all know about assumptions!
Yesterday I was sent a YouTube video by Mike of The In Groove who alleges that every Mo-Fi One Step release (his broader claim is every Mobile Fidelity release since 2015) has a digital step in the mastering process. He proffered an initial theory or two, but then rejected those as improbable...
www.whatsbestforum.com
Nor do I understand the cancellation of orders, if you guys liked their sound what does it matter if there's a digital step and don't be surprised when you find the same digital process in almost every so called "audiophile" label. The expertise to cut lacquer manually from analog sources simply doesn't exist anymore even if the , and that's a fact! All this crap about noise filtering and the horrible 180g vinyl is what's killing the sound not the digital mastering and everyone is still good with that .
They did not identify digital under blind conditions during long years, this was my point. Even now, they are do not are able to do it. I bet that as soon as MoFi are obliged to inform us, some people will immediately do it with assurance.
This said, fakes can be excellent. I know when we were tracking down a particular counterfeiter (also involved in a murder) in the 80s his counterfeit bills for that day and time were works of art. We could only tell his fakes by putting them under a scope.
I feel confident the same is even more possible in audio recordings. There were far too many vinylphiles that were fooled by MoFi’s misbehavior for this not to be the case. Think of all the effort that went into this Pinocchio vinyl. Someone knew that if was ever discovered that there would be various consequences to pay. So they made excellent fakes!
IMHO the analogy is not related at all with the situation I was describing. There is no original or fake in this discussion. Just liars and fooled people, a few of them claiming to be able to detect any vestige of digital and to be the guardians of pure analog .
Overall I think most of the audiophile community is a trusting sort. They want to believe the best in everyone. But when you begin with that presupposition it makes it easier to be conned. MoFi had a reputation that could be trusted. No one expected they would pull what I would call a con job. …
Yes, you are right, the high-end is intrinsically a trust affair. It is why I say most people are not interested in courts and trials, just in apologies and a quick forget. Do you believe that only one or two people knew about this DSD256 step?
Yes, you are right, the high-end is intrinsically a trust affair. It is why I say most people are not interested in courts and trials, just in apologies and a quick forget. Do you believe that only one or two people knew about this DSD256 step?
I don‘t know how many people actually knew about the digital step. I didn’t until this came to light.
We know MoFi did, but said otherwise in their letters to their customers, etc. From reading this forum it seems a few people claimed they knew there was a digital step in MoFi’s analogue. But no matter, the fact is MoFi deceived many individuals that purchased some of their vinyl from 2008 forward. I won’t forget it and want nothing to do with MoFi or Music Direct.
Fortunately, I don‘t have much MoFi. However, I’m now wondering if I shouldn’t have just purchased an all digital system and not a TT. While I have access to a lot of older records here in FL, this new revelation kinda spoils some of the hobby for me. I feel betrayed by the hobby. This may pass and presently I still enjoy my vinyl more than my digital. So, time will tell.
www.whatsbestforum.com
