Do Tubes Homogenize the Sound of Our Music?

[Kingrex]

I find amp/speaker pairing to have a sound. I don't see any reason to pidgeon hole a name to them. They just have a sound. I'm only talking power amp/speaker. Not front end.

I have also become aware how varied the music taste of listeners is. It is all over. And what I hear is particular pairing of amp/speaker excell at playback of certain music. Sure any combo of good equipment can play anything. But there are pairing that seem to bring out more a sense of what particular genre of music is all about.

I feel anyone having a discussion about component needs to take into account the type of music will be played. And the temperament of the listener. Some people listen to their stereo and others to music. To often people seem to jump to technical specifications, feedback levels, distortion etc. They don't think about the end user.

Add on top of this the power supply feeding it all. If you have aluminum and stranded wire, you are adding a mid bump smoother to the system. If you have all copper, solid wire, you have a little flatter more clear window. Add a filter such as an AQ 5000 or large isolatuon transformer and now where are you. These power selections all have a profound impact on what is heard from a system. They can radically change how a system voices. Especially the filters.

 

[Atmasphere]

But there are pairing that seem to bring out more a sense of what particular genre of music is all about.

I feel anyone having a discussion about component needs to take into account the type of music will be played.

If you've figured out a way to get a system to favor a certain genre, I'd love to know about it! So far speaker and amplifier designers have not sorted out how to get their designs to do that.

 

[bonzo75]

@PeterA
“My former SS amps made recordings sound much more similar to each other”

Spot on!
I discovered that tubes were actually more discriminating and revealing of nuance and very subtle details. SET being the most adept at this.
Charles

SETs are a simpler circuit. If they are fed through simple crossovers to efficient speakers, the purer signal will result in more transparency to recordings, causing them to sound more different

 

[Atmasphere]

SETs are a simpler circuit. If they are fed through simple crossovers to efficient speakers, the purer signal will result in more transparency to recordings, causing them to sound more different

FWIW our OTLs have only one stage of gain as opposed to the typical 3 stages of gain found in an SET.

Class D amplifiers have an opamp buffer input, but the actual class D section has only one stage of 'gain' also.

One has to be careful with generalizations- there are often exceptions!

 

[charles1dad]

@morricab
Your post #176 is exceptionally insightful and thoughtful. I attend quite a few live acoustic music performances. Predominately smaller jazz venues without usage of microphones. Some small scale classical music recitals as well.

You comments on live music and SET reproduction of music is just reminisce of my experiences. All those jazz musicians playing their hearts out up close and personal is what actually led me to SET.Your observation is on point.
Charles

 

[Kingrex]

If you've figured out a way to get a system to favor a certain genre, I'd love to know about it! So far speaker and amplifier designers have not sorted out how to get their designs to do that.

I disagree. We all know speaker/amp pairing create very different sonic playback in a room. And there is a lot more music out there than Rock, Jazz and Classical. You can very much bring out a type of sound people associate with a music Genre by the speaker/amp you use.

For instance, someone likes rhythmic driving drums and synth. They don't want to hear the skin of the drum. They want to feel the intensity and power in the room. Why don't you sell them a Magnepan 1.7 and tube amp. Hmmmmm. I personally think that would be a poor chice. I would say get a ported box speaker and a powerful SS amp.

How about a guy into classical nylon string guitar. He want to hear the wood of the instrument. Every subtle detail. I think a horn and SET would make a fantastic pairing.

Will others work. Sure. Anything will make sound in your room. But you need a starting point.

My Conrad Johnson and Sonus Faber had all sorts of balls and drive. It made The Who an experience. My Dartzeel and PAP Trio 15 don't do anything the same in my room. Not at all. But I listen more for details now. And I don't play very loud. My music taste changed. I sold that system and found one that was better at expressing detailed music with suble cues throughout.

 

[wil]

mastersound is an entry level SET. Did you even roll any tubes to get rid of colour?

I used the output tubes the amps were specifically designed for: 845’s; 300b and GM70.

 

[bonzo75]

I used the output tubes the amps were specifically designed for: 845’s; 300b and GM70.

Different types of 300b tubes sound very different. 845 can be rolled as well to RCA etc. and generally a 845 or GM70 will be providing more drive than a 300b (if latter is a SET). 300b SETs could get under driving many speakers which itself will give a bloated sound due to incorrect mismatch on the bass, no fault of the amplifier.

 

[wil]

Different types of 300b tubes sound very different. 845 can be rolled as well to RCA etc. and generally a 845 or GM70 will be providing more drive than a 300b (if latter is a SET). 300b SETs could get under driving many speakers which itself will give a bloated sound due to incorrect mismatch on the bass, no fault of the amplifier.

I did try a couple of different 845’s and 300b’s. To my surprise it was finally a Bakoon SS that made the AG Mezzos sing. I also liked the LTA amp.

 

[Kingrex]

I did try a couple of different 845’s and 300b’s. To my surprise it was finally a Bakoon SS that made the AG Mezzos sing. I also liked the LTA amp.

I thought you used Dartzeel amps? Have you changes to something new?

 

[the sound of Tao]

I disagree. We all know speaker/amp pairing create very different sonic playback in a room. And there is a lot more music out there than Rock, Jazz and Classical. You can very much bring out a type of sound people associate with a music Genre by the speaker/amp you use.

For instance, someone likes rhythmic driving drums and synth. They don't want to hear the skin of the drum. They want to feel the intensity and power in the room. Why don't you sell them a Magnepan 1.7 and tube amp. Hmmmmm. I personally think that would be a poor chice. I would say get a ported box speaker and a powerful SS amp.

How about a guy into classical nylon string guitar. He want to hear the wood of the instrument. Every subtle detail. I think a horn and SET would make a fantastic pairing.

Will others work. Sure. Anything will make sound in your room. But you need a starting point.

My Conrad Johnson and Sonus Faber had all sorts of balls and drive. It made The Who an experience. My Dartzeel and PAP Trio 15 don't do anything the same in my room. Not at all. But I listen more for details now. And I don't play very loud. My music taste changed. I sold that system and found one that was better at expressing detailed music with suble cues throughout.

In terms of less homogenisation I was also thinking well matched SET with an appropriate specific speaker combination was a good starter here… and then in terms of best fit for music beyond speaker choice is the tube combination (if SET) and quality of implementation and also actual amp and pre pairing also had much to say about all this. Then in terms of resolution and in conveying music (musicality) this is ultimately bound to pairing the functional needs of the specific music to best match in with the overall strengths and qualities of the system.

 

[wil]

I thought you used Dartzeel amps? Have you changes to something new?

No, this was before when I had the Avant-garde speakers

 

[Ron Resnick]

I disagree. We all know speaker/amp pairing create very different sonic playback in a room. And there is a lot more music out there than Rock, Jazz and Classical. You can very much bring out a type of sound people associate with a music Genre by the speaker/amp you use.

For instance, someone likes rhythmic driving drums and synth. They don't want to hear the skin of the drum. They want to feel the intensity and power in the room. Why don't you sell them a Magnepan 1.7 and tube amp. Hmmmmm. I personally think that would be a poor chice. I would say get a ported box speaker and a powerful SS amp.

How about a guy into classical nylon string guitar. He want to hear the wood of the instrument. Every subtle detail. I think a horn and SET would make a fantastic pairing.

Will others work. Sure. Anything will make sound in your room. But you need a starting point.

My Conrad Johnson and Sonus Faber had all sorts of balls and drive. It made The Who an experience. My Dartzeel and PAP Trio 15 don't do anything the same in my room. Not at all. But I listen more for details now. And I don't play very loud. My music taste changed. I sold that system and found one that was better at expressing detailed music with suble cues throughout.

I think you are providing anecdotal evidence for my theory that with sufficient live music experience and sufficient audio system auditioning experience eventually musical genre preference drives loudspeaker preference.

 

[PYP]

Nelson Pass speaking about harmonic distortion:

"Having previously designed with SIT (VFET) single-ended amplifiers and also the Korg Nutubes, I have worked up some performance targets which deliver an effect that is usually well-liked. This effect is described as having negative phase 2nd harmonic at approximately 1% of the amplitude of the original signal . . . but after you invert the output (to get absolute phase correct) you will find that it is now a negative phase 2nd harmonic. I know this might be confusing—I have occasionally awakened in the middle of the night and thought 'That can't be right.

So why is the phase important? Well, it's a subtle thing. I don't suppose everyone can hear it, and fewer particularly care, but from listening tests we learn that there is a tendency to interpret negative phase 2nd [harmonic] as giving a deeper soundstage and improved localization [of images] than otherwise. Positive phase seems to put the instruments and vocals closer and a little more in-your-face with enhanced detail.

Your results may vary, but when I first explored this with the SIT-1 amplifier at First Watt, I had a knob on the front of the amplifier which varied the amount and phase of the 2nd harmonic. It was easy enough to lend the amplifiers to listeners who didn't know what the knob did and gather their comments. Roughly speaking, they tended to prefer about 1% negative phase 2nd harmonic, so it became my standard setting for that knob."

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think you are providing anecdotal evidence for my theory that with sufficient live music experience and audio system auditioning experience eventually musical genre preference drives loudspeaker preference.

I do still think it’s a bit of a chicken or egg thing… clearly music preference shapes system development and then system characteristics also then further shapes music focus. Music preferences are for me a work in development just like the system is. If you write a mission statement or philosophy for your system aims it’s good to add your philosophy on music… for me it’s always about broadening and expanding my music understanding. I find having two systems with slightly different spirits and strengths makes connecting to more genres more possible.

 

[tima]

However in my opinion coloration is always there regardless of what the electronics are, it's just different colors.

Ralph (@Atmasphere ) might tell us coloration is a function of distortion resulting from different harmonic emphases, different components masking or revealing this or that harmonic order. (Probably some other factors there but let's keep it simple.)

Different components sound different from each other as we've all experienced. I suppose the claim that all components have some distortion -- the output signal is different from the input -- is kinda like saying all components are colored . But that's a measurement of an electronic signal. I don't know if that is enough to get to the claim that all component are colored.

'Color' or 'coloration' is not an electronic measurement word. It's a listening description word. The step that is missing is a claim about this or that distortion correlating (or not) with what we hear. (Ralph might talk in terms of the 'rules of human hearing'.) Even that is just a description.

Explaining why we hear something (causality) is irrelevant to what we hear and the relative comparisons we make to other music and products that we hear. The basis of our preference is not a measurement.

I'm guessing you're saying all components sound colored relative to live acoustic music. Is that what you mean? If so, do you agree that while all components are colored some are more colored than others?

 

[tima]

If loudspeaker choice is music genre specific then we should be able to predict what speakers someone will own based on their music preference. Or given some particular loudspeaker can we say what type of music its owner prefers?

Of course talking about loudspeakers without talking about amps is silly.

 

[MadFloyd]

I'm guessing you're saying all components sound colored relative to live acoustic music. Is that what you mean? If so, do you agree that while all components are colored some are more colored than others?

I think what I'm trying to say is that all components impart a sonic signature to some degree (e.g. a house sound if you will).... and yes, some components are more colored than others.

 

[KeithR]

the duos are the only speakers I like less than Wilson and Magico, though I admit not as bad as Raidho. That’s the extent of your “horn” reference

Did you ever hear the XDs?

 

[morricab]

Did you ever hear the XDs?

I have with Avantgarde amps and it was shocking how forward the sound was…given I have heard older Duos sound quite good it was disappointing.