Do Tubes Homogenize the Sound of Our Music?

[bonzo75]

I remain fascinated by this kind of setup along with DDKs (unfortunately just way too big). I have read some of your comments about the Avantgarde Trios and their own dual horn subs. I happened to hear them earlier this week...by any chance do you have any insights into the setup in Seoul, Korea (Hifi Club)...there are photos around this site...using (surprisingly to me) MSB monos.

It should be very easy for you to travel to Paris to listen to an all Kondo Bionor set up close to the Eurostar (tell your wife romantic Paris holiday) And since you like the Wilsons, you should also travel to Pescara, 3 hours from Rome, tell your wife you are having a holiday on the Italian coast, and listen to an all Kondo Sigma MAAT, which look like a wilson but are 102 db @ 8 ohm so much easier to drive and hence imo more musical. And you can go to Oslo quite easily, possibly with a skiing holiday excuse.

Regarding the trio, they are good for off the shelf commercial company backed speaker set up, but imo don't have the magic of the above systems due to their midrange. Still, if they were cheaper used, I would easily buy them for a plug play set up.

Regarding size, it is only Leif's bass horns that are big and you can find alternate bass horns. Rest of the horn now is small.

 

[Argonaut]

Yes he has that horn now and also has changed his transformer to nanocrystalline. Plus, some of the videos I linked were without the DaVa and the Melco, so his analog is better now. He has one driver less now (TAD 2002 is gone with 4003 covering the entire range from 550 hz up). He is also experimenting with DRC from 550.

Most interesting … Recent Images and iphone audio vids are a minimum requirement if you please Kedar particularly in light of
“ (TAD 2002 is gone with 4003 covering the entire range from 550 hz up).”

 

[bonzo75]

Most interesting … Recent Images and iphone audio vids are a minimum requirement if you please Kedar particularly in light of
“ (TAD 2002 is gone with 4003 covering the entire range from 550 hz up).”

I had put up a Grumiaux video in the violin videos section. He is still playing around with the crossover there and the DaVa reference needs to be mounted back on, hopefully I will get to hear in the next quarter. He also has changed his transformer to nanocrystal. So it will not be an apples for apples compare.

 

[Argonaut]

He also has changed his transformer to nanocrystal. So it will not be an apples for apples compare.

All part of my singular continued interest with Leif and his system journey

 

[bonzo75]

All part of my singular continued interest with Leif and his system journey

I think his system was pretty much there. You can never let a DIYer rest especially after retirement. The good thing is if I like the current horn in person, by being a driver less it is shorter in height for WAF, and the TAD 2002 was getting quite expensive, so that saves some money. I will still have to figure out an alternate bass horn below that is much smaller.

ps: I linked the shortened horn in my reply to LL21 above

 

[LL21]

It should be very easy for you to travel to Paris to listen to an all Kondo Bionor set up close to the Eurostar (tell your wife romantic Paris holiday) And since you like the Wilsons, you should also travel to Pescara, 3 hours from Rome, tell your wife you are having a holiday on the Italian coast, and listen to an all Kondo Sigma MAAT, which look like a wilson but are 102 db @ 8 ohm so much easier to drive and hence imo more musical. And you can go to Oslo quite easily, possibly with a skiing holiday excuse.

Regarding the trio, they are good for off the shelf commercial company backed speaker set up, but imo don't have the magic of the above systems due to their midrange. Still, if they were cheaper used, I would easily buy them for a plug play set up.

Will keep those all noted, thanks. The AG Trio setup was (I imagine based on the rest of the rooms) very well setup...it had a slight hardness (to my personal taste/ear) where on the one hand, it could easily deliver up super-subtle inflections in voices, etc...and yet I was always seemed to be getting a bit of a 'blast' of it rather than having it simply float/emanate from the space. Best way I can describe it.

 

[Argonaut]

I think his system was pretty much there. You can never let DIYer rest especially after retirement. The good thing is if I like the current horn in person, by being a driver less it is shorter in height for WAF, and the TAD 2002 was getting quite expensive, so that saves some money. I will still have to figure out an alternate bass horn below that is much smaller.

Yes … There are times with a DIY system where one has approached ones personal goals and the system regarded highly by others only to add one more egg to the pudding and take a step backwards …

 

[bonzo75]

Will keep those all noted, thanks. The AG Trio setup was (I imagine based on the rest of the rooms) very well setup...it had a slight hardness (to my personal taste/ear) where on the one hand, it could easily deliver up super-subtle inflections in voices, etc...and yet I was always seemed to be getting a bit of a 'blast' of it rather than having it simply float/emanate from the space. Best way I can describe it.

Yes all that resonates with my impressions

 

[bonzo75]

Yes … There are times with a DIY system where one has approached ones personal goals and the system regarded highly by others only to add one more egg to the pudding and take a step backwards …

That can happen with any audiophile tweakery. Now with videos we can keep such things in check. Where I admire Leif the most is, and the reason why he got here, he has zero attitude in taking feedback, there is nothing like My way is the only way as I have seen everything (which, actually, he and his Viking friends have systematically rolled more drivers and know more about horns than anyone I know), and he takes feedback on videos etc while he is also showing the direction. So that's why he ends up improving. But I would be quite happy with the sound I heard in 2020, the only purpose now is to save cost on the TAD 2002 and have a shorter horn.

 

[LL21]

Yes all that resonates with my impressions

Thanks, Bonzo75...very helpful.

 

[Argonaut]

and the TAD 2002 was getting quite expensive,

I am also curious as to whether the removal of the upper mid ( whilst not quite at Phnoe one driver purist level) has allowed the 4003 to perform to its full potential and the system to perform perhaps with a *less is more* coherence

 

[wil]

Not sure why you are defending the duo given that all your negative comments against “horns” come from your duo experience.

I’m not “defending” or offending anything.

I’m just reporting my particular experience. I was never satisfied with the the AG’s until I stopped listening to the conventional wisdom (set’s with AG) and started exploring other amp options. Hopefully it could be useful to someone who reads this thread.

 

[bonzo75]

I’m not “defending” or offending anything.

I’m just reporting my particular experience. I was never satisfied with the the AG’s until I stopped listening to the conventional wisdom (set’s with AG) and started exploring other amp options. Hopefully it could be useful to someone who reads this thread.

hopefully someone who reads this thread will not get duos!

i would like to compare Bakoon to SETs myself on better horns or efficient non horns

 

[Cyrus]

How well do things stay together during complex large scale symphonic music passages? Do you maintain good separation?

Charles, I'm getting exceptional separation and layering (without going too far so as to be artificial). That, combined with the depth and width of the sound field, is contributing to my enjoyment of complex, dense, massed sections. There are other factors also.

 

[Cyrus]

I’m just reporting my particular experience. I was never satisfied with the the AG’s until I stopped listening to the conventional wisdom (set’s with AG) and started exploring other amp options.

@wil Have you heard the AGs with Ralph's OTLs or another OTL amp? If you are still exploring traditional pairings, the Italian New Audio Frontiers and Riviera would be options I'd be curious about.

* it's weird having to specify OTL rather than simply Ralph's amps. : )

 

[charles1dad]

Charles, I'm getting exceptional separation and layering (without going too far so as to be artificial). That, combined with the depth and width of the sound field, is contributing to my enjoyment of complex, dense, massed sections. There are other factors also.

Cyrus,
That is very encouraging to know the Cube Audio Nenuphar has that degree of aplomb with that genre of complex music. quite the accomplishment.
Charles

 

[christoph]

That can happen with any audiophile tweakery. Now with videos we can keep such things in check. Where I admire Leif the most is, and the reason why he got here, he has zero attitude in taking feedback, there is nothing like My way is the only way as I have seen everything (which, actually, he and his Viking friends have systematically rolled more drivers and know more about horns than anyone I know), and he takes feedback on videos etc while he is also showing the direction. So that's why he ends up improving. But I would be quite happy with the sound I heard in 2020, the only purpose now is to save cost on the TAD 2002 and have a shorter horn.

Leif's main speaker is now almost "manageable" in size and also the visual design now for the remaining "2-ways" being square only, looks very "compact" and homogenous to me.
Even though I'm a huge fan of the big hORNS midrange le'cleach horn, I find the new design visually more pleasing and by getting rid of the supertweeter, also probably easier and certainly "more affordable"

After you already have the rare TAD 4003, which is seemingly essential for this reduced design, there are no more excuses for you Ked, not to start YOUR journey

If I had a pair of TAD 4003 (or there were other drivers able to cover the whole FR up to 20khz in good quality), I would BEG Leif to help me build (t)his "Mega 2-way main speakers" and find a sub solution later along the way

Or directly employ the GR Research dipole subwoofers that Kodomo and David (acousticguru) use and be done

 

[wil]

@wil Have you heard the AGs with Ralph's OTLs or another OTL amp? If you are still exploring traditional pairings, the Italian New Audio Frontiers and Riviera would be options I'd be curious about.

* it's weird having to specify OTL rather than simply Ralph's amps. : )

I bet the OTL's would be good. After the Bakoon 13r, I also liked the LTA MZ3 (based on the Berning Zotl circuit).

 

[bonzo75]

Leif's main speaker is now almost "manageable" in size and also the visual design now for the remaining "2-ways" being square only, looks very "compact" and homogenous to me.
Even though I'm a huge fan of the big hORNS midrange le'cleach horn, I find the new design visually more pleasing and by getting rid of the supertweeter, also probably easier and certainly "more affordable"

After you already have the rare TAD 4003, which is seemingly essential for this reduced design, there are no more excuses for you Ked, not to start YOUR journey

If I had a pair of TAD 4003 (or there were other drivers able to cover the whole FR up to 20khz in good quality), I would BEG Leif to help me build (t)his "Mega 2-way main speakers" and find a sub solution later along the way

Or directly employ the GR Research dipole subwoofers that Kodomo and David (acousticguru) use and be done

hi Christoph, I love the horns universum too, I just heard them for 5 plus hours last week, no fatigue, most transparent to recordings. The main difference between the two is that they are more restricted to classical, jazz, vocals, and not for rock. Someone who doesn’t want to DIY can additionally add a vintage tannoy gold for rock for not much money and play them both with the same amplifier.


I have still some travels to do and things to learn instead of being holed up at home. Plus we got a kitten in July and have to learn how to manage her, she is likely to go exploring up the horn chamber and loves pulling any wire/cable

 

[bonzo75]

[ If you are still exploring traditional pairings, the Italian New Audio Frontiers and Riviera would be options I'd be curious about.

* it's weird having to specify OTL rather than simply Ralph's amps. : )

NAF 2a3 was quite better than the 50w riviera hybrids on Devore. But the Riviera are very good on inefficient speakers, like we heard with the old Wilson Grand slam X1