Do Tubes Homogenize the Sound of Our Music?

[Atmasphere]

I think a single driver can sound the best for simple music without frequency extremes but it falls apart on large scale classical. A large 4-way may be good for the same classical but it's much harder to get that big speaker to sound great on simple music, and ime it'll never be as good as something like a Feastex or AER in a simple BR cabinet driven by a small SET amp.

Then there's rock music, Led Zeppelin probably sounds best on something closer to a PA speaker with paper drivers and a big PP tube amp, it's hard to listen to at high volumes on many hifi systems.

Then there's intimate jazz, you really need a horn/set for that.

And electronica, you want something with great low-end capability.

If you want to reproduce 16Hz pedal tones you need great low-end capability.

Before I ever knew about electronia I wanted the bass to be right because I played in an orchestra for 20 years.

Some of the Led Zepplin stuff is really poorly recorded and doesn't sound right on anything.

Something like a 'full range' driver will work great with any genre as long as it doesn't have frequency extremes or a great deal of complexity. Its not a genre thing so much as its simply a limitation thing.

The classic example is supposed to be the JBL L-100 being good for rock, but IME that speaker does any genre about as well. I'm not saying its all that great for rock; the speakers I have now do it better (Classic Audio Loudspeakers T-3 with field coils) and they do really well with electronica, jazz and classical as well. Not so much Zepplin; depends on which album...

This isn't a tube/solid state thing BTW. As best I can make out it seems to have more to do with what kind of music and the range of recordings to which one has been exposed. There are excellent recordings of every genre and those that stink in every genre. The better your system is, the better those good recordings sound (and the even better systems don't editorialize; they stay unperturbed, when the recording sucks). IOW we're really talking about how well a system can manage a recording and not anything else.

 

[bonzo75]

Leif's main speaker is now almost "manageable" in size and also the visual design now for the remaining "2-ways" being square only, looks very "compact" and homogenous to me.
Even though I'm a huge fan of the big hORNS midrange le'cleach horn, I find the new design visually more pleasing and by getting rid of the supertweeter, also probably easier and certainly "more affordable"

After you already have the rare TAD 4003, which is seemingly essential for this reduced design, there are no more excuses for you Ked, not to start YOUR journey

If I had a pair of TAD 4003 (or there were other drivers able to cover the whole FR up to 20khz in good quality), I would BEG Leif to help me build (t)his "Mega 2-way main speakers" and find a sub solution later along the way

Or directly employ the GR Research dipole subwoofers that Kodomo and David (acousticguru) use and be done

Btw an Altec 817 is a very good design and with the Altec mid 288 replaced to TAD 4003, and if required the multicell replaced with the kind of orn Leif is using, could give very good functionality in its size due to its woofer cabinet. Just that for this someone will have to tweak the 817 crossover slightly.

 

[Cyrus]

That is very encouraging to know the Cube Audio Nenuphar has that degree of aplomb with that genre of complex music. quite the accomplishment.

Thank you, Charles.

The Cube Audio Nenuphars, driven by Scott Sheaffer's 2A3 build, have exceeded my expectations in so many ways. Most importantly, they have played a significant role in my development and growth and understanding within this hobby and pursuit. I have a 'before' and an 'after' demarcation.

 

[Cyrus]

NAF 2a3 was quite better than the 50w riviera hybrids on Devore. But the Riviera are very good on inefficient speakers, like we heard with the old Wilson Grand slam X1

@bonzo75 Thanks for your impressions.

Can you expand on what made the 50W Riviera hybrid amps not as good of a pairing with DeVore? Which DeVores?

Recently, Michael Lavorgna favorably reported on the Riviera AFM25 hybrid mono - DeVore O/96 pairing.

Twittering Machines Riviera Audio Labs review

 

[bonzo75]

NAF 2a3 was quite better than the 50w riviera hybrids on Devore. But the Riviera are very good on inefficient speakers, like we heard with the old Wilson Grand slam X1

NAF 2a3 is just more purer and transparent and more agile and tonal better, as any good 2a3 will be compared to a much higher watt hybrid. You will have to give it up only when you get to a speaker where it shows constraints on drive and dynamic range. With Devore 096 this is not the case.

 

[Cyrus]

NAF 2a3 is just more purer and transparent and more agile and tonal better, as any good 2a3 will be compared to a much higher watt hybrid. You will have to give it up only when you get to a speaker where it shows constraints on drive and dynamic range.

Thanks.

 

[Argonaut]

I love the horns universum too, I just heard them for 5 plus hours last week, no fatigue, most transparent to recordings. The main difference between the two is that they are more restricted to classical, jazz, vocals, and not for rock.

For my part I would highly recommend to any prospective *off the shelf* horns purchaser who has a major predilection for those genres , and who might be contemplating AvantGarde Duo XD, to audition the hORNS Universum MK4 as well , as and again for my part I consider them to reproduce the live corporeal event just that more believably to my ears than do the AG’s.

 

[bonzo75]

For my part I would highly recommend to any prospective *off the shelf* horns purchaser who has a major predilection for those genres , and who might be contemplating AvantGarde Duo XD, to audition the hORNS Universum MK4 as well , as and again for my part I consider them to reproduce the live corporeal event just that more believably to my ears.

Personally I prefer them to all Cessaros and the trios except for the bass horn effect. But then it is like someone choosing a normal cone compared to one with subs. Subs sure have a place but not everyone has them, and in many cases subs will not work in the room as well

 

[morricab]

Personally I prefer them to all Cessaros and the trios except for the bass horn effect. But then it is like someone choosing a normal cone compared to one with subs. Subs sure have a place but not everyone has them, and in many cases subs will not work in the room as well

The Cessaro demos in Munich were very good this year…I was really impressed for the first time. For the price of the Universum or XD Duos I would seriously consider the Odeon Semper…

 

[bonzo75]

The Cessaro demos in Munich were very good this year…I was really impressed for the first time. For the price of the Universum or XD Duos I would seriously consider the Odeon Semper…

I would never buy Odeon over universum but there are people who like more colour and cone like bass on a horn. I would take a Devore over it if diet was good LPs or a relatively efficient cone like Verity if one were more digitally inclined or less recordings led

here it is with AC electronics and Taiko, was listening last month. Decent system, but not close to universum, unless latter is poorly set up or played trash tracks on

Uni is very good for digital and reissues too, excels with originals

 

[morricab]

I would never buy Odeon over universum but there are people who like more colour and cone like bass on a horn. I would take a Devore over it if diet was good LPs or a relatively efficient cone like Verity if one were more digitally inclined or less recordings led

here it is with AC electronics and Taiko, was listening last month. Decent system, but not close to universum, unless latter is poorly set up or played trash tracks on

Uni is very good for digital and reissues too, excels with originals

View attachment 101204

I think the presentation is different enough that you could go either way depending on if you are more of a "you are there" vs. "they are here" soundstage. In terms of dynamics and low coloration then they are comparable.

Both Odeons newer offerings and the Universum use cone bass rather than bass horns or active cone bass (like Duos), so I am not sure why you use that as a criticism. The bass is better integrated, IMO, on the Odeons.

Having heard both Liechtenstein systems last weekend, I would still lean towards the Odeons (Carnegie drivers in the No.38/2 cabinets) although I agree the Universums are very good.

As to the Devore O96, sorry this is not even close to either of these brands bigger models. I would take the Odeon Helix in a modest sized room or the new Rigoletto if I wanted a full horn design over anything I have heard from Devore. Three shows now hearing their various models leave me scratching my head what you find so fascinating about these speakers...kind of like the AN E speakers that some swear by but sound totally boring to me.

 

[bonzo75]

I think the presentation is different enough that you could go either way depending on if you are more of a "you are there" vs. "they are here" soundstage. In terms of dynamics and low coloration then they are comparable.

Both Odeons newer offerings and the Universum use cone bass rather than bass horns or active cone bass (like Duos), so I am not sure why you use that as a criticism. The bass is better integrated, IMO, on the Odeons.

Having heard both Liechtenstein systems last weekend, I would still lean towards the Odeons (Carnegie drivers in the No.38/2 cabinets) although I agree the Universums are very good.

As to the Devore O96, sorry this is not even close to either of these brands bigger models. I would take the Odeon Helix in a modest sized room or the new Rigoletto if I wanted a full horn design over anything I have heard from Devore. Three shows now hearing their various models leave me scratching my head what you find so fascinating about these speakers...kind of like the AN E speakers that some swear by but sound totally boring to me.

Odeons are poor. That bass is just artificial bass pumping out

 

[bonzo75]

Three shows now hearing their various models leave me scratching my head what you find so fascinating about these speakers...kind of like the AN E speakers that some swear by but sound totally boring to me.

I never said the Devores sounded good in Munich. In fact they were bad there. You can go to six shows there and it won’t help. Usually it will be the same room and similar set up. Why will anything change? I don’t like AN E that much, and as for fascinated, they and vintage tannoy are my budget speakers, when you pay a premium, these need to be bettered, usually they are not except by extremely good speakers that near final. Lots of trash Om the middle. I have heard Odeon 28, 32, 38, and the ones above all with different amps, different rooms. All equally disappointing

 

[morricab]

Odeons are poor. That bass is just artificial bass pumping out

You are wrong.

 

[morricab]

I never said the Devores sounded good in Munich. In fact they were bad there. You can go to six shows there and it won’t help. Usually it will be the same room and similar set up. Why will anything change? I don’t like AN E that much, and as for fascinated, they and vintage tannoy are my budget speakers, when you pay a premium, these need to be bettered, usually they are not except by extremely good speakers that near final. Lots of trash Om the middle. I have heard Odeon 28, 32, 38, and the ones above all with different amps, different rooms. All equally disappointing

Vintage Tannoys are not nearly as good as you claim. Your experience with Odeons is your opinion, nothing more and just because you haven't heard them in a setup you liked it is no different from my Devore experiences. Universums have plenty of flaws that are easily heard as well...their bass is rather a weakness of the design despite looking cool.

 

[Atmasphere]

Vintage Tannoys are not nearly as good as you claim. Your experience with Odeons is your opinion, nothing more and just because you haven't heard them in a setup you liked it is no different from my Devore experiences. Universums have plenty of flaws that are easily heard as well...their bass is rather a weakness of the design despite looking cool.

IME Tannoys need a bit of power- 60 Watts is a good minimum in most rooms with their larger models.

 

[morricab]

IME Tannoys need a bit of power- 60 Watts is a good minimum in most rooms with their larger models.

I have issues with their coloration…could be somewhat cabinet related as well

 

[morricab]

I have issues with their coloration…could be somewhat cabinet related as well

For vintage coax drivers I strongly prefer the Altec 604

 

[christoph]

For the price of the Universum or XD Duos I would seriously consider the Odeon Semper…

Never

 

[christoph]

Universums have plenty of flaws that are easily heard as well...their bass is rather a weakness of the design despite looking cool.

Care to elaborate?