Do Tubes Homogenize the Sound of Our Music?

[bonzo75]

Did you ever hear the XDs?

i heard whatever the latest was just before pandemic. Mezzo XD. It makes no difference across the old to new duo. Till date I haven’t heard a good small horn. If not a big horn, I will go for a non horn efficient speaker as compromise.

And these days audionec is just way better and can run on 20w SETs

 

[Atmasphere]

You can very much bring out a type of sound people associate with a music Genre by the speaker/amp you use.

I've never seen that!

IME what makes an amp/speaker good for a certain genre will make it good in the same way for any other genre.The same goes for weaknesses. The issue seems to be how many recordings to which one has been exposed- there are excellent and really poor recordings in every single genre. But musicians all use ears that work pretty much the same- more sensitive at high frequencies for example, so they tend to use the same mix of highs and lows to sculpt their art.

IMO the idea that a speaker or amplifier or combination of them can somehow favor a certain genre (for example, downbeat 80s) is the biggest myth in audio- you encounter this myth no matter if its a boombox or a million dollar system. But the simple fact is that if a designer could sort out how to make an amp or a speaker favor a certain genre they would be a millionaire over night. No-one's figured out how to do that so far.

 

[LL21]

I've never seen that!

IME what makes an amp/speaker good for a certain genre will make it good in the same way for any other genre.The same goes for weaknesses. The issue seems to be how many recordings to which one has been exposed- there are excellent and really poor recordings in every single genre. But musicians all use ears that work pretty much the same- more sensitive at high frequencies for example, so they tend to use the same mix of highs and lows to sculpt their art.

IMO the idea that a speaker or amplifier or combination of them can somehow favor a certain genre (for example, downbeat 80s) is the biggest myth in audio- you encounter this myth no matter if its a boombox or a million dollar system. But the simple fact is that if a designer could sort out how to make an amp or a speaker favor a certain genre they would be a millionaire over night. No-one's figured out how to do that so far.

I think when [some] people refer to this, I think of the following:
- Bookshelf speaker that drops off below 50hz.
- Play 2 types of music:
- flute sonatas
- heavy deep house electronic where 30% of what one is listening for starts below 45hz and plumbs all the way down below 25hz

For someone who is buying that speaker for heavy deep house...and wants to hear all the 35hz information, then this speaker is not ideal for his kind of music. Because a huge part of the music is missing, certainly missing in the way that one would want to really feel/hear it. On the other hand, for someone who NEVER listens to music with that kind of deep register, they may not miss that sub 50hz as much.

And from there, I suspect that people might find for certain music, it can be more forgiving of a speaker's idiosyncrasies than other kinds of music. I might forgive a speaker with less alacrity than an electrostatic if I were listening to a cappella or female jazz ballads...but listening to Gabriela y Rogrigo, I might be more focused on alacrity as essential to getting their performance 'just right' because I want to hear the fingers plucking, etc...

 

[DaveC]

I've never seen that!

IME what makes an amp/speaker good for a certain genre will make it good in the same way for any other genre.The same goes for weaknesses. The issue seems to be how many recordings to which one has been exposed- there are excellent and really poor recordings in every single genre. But musicians all use ears that work pretty much the same- more sensitive at high frequencies for example, so they tend to use the same mix of highs and lows to sculpt their art.

IMO the idea that a speaker or amplifier or combination of them can somehow favor a certain genre (for example, downbeat 80s) is the biggest myth in audio- you encounter this myth no matter if its a boombox or a million dollar system. But the simple fact is that if a designer could sort out how to make an amp or a speaker favor a certain genre they would be a millionaire over night. No-one's figured out how to do that so far.

I think a single driver can sound the best for simple music without frequency extremes but it falls apart on large scale classical. A large 4-way may be good for the same classical but it's much harder to get that big speaker to sound great on simple music, and ime it'll never be as good as something like a Feastex or AER in a simple BR cabinet driven by a small SET amp.

Then there's rock music, Led Zeppelin probably sounds best on something closer to a PA speaker with paper drivers and a big PP tube amp, it's hard to listen to at high volumes on many hifi systems.

Then there's intimate jazz, you really need a horn/set for that.

And electronica, you want something with great low-end capability.

 

[KeithR]

i heard whatever the latest was just before pandemic. Mezzo XD. It makes no difference across the old to new duo. Till date I haven’t heard a good small horn. If not a big horn, I will go for a non horn efficient speaker as compromise.

And these days audionec is just way better and can run on 20w SETs

Well I find Duo XDs much better than O96s and the like. But you have to be ok with active bass which isn’t your fav. They is integrated correctly, finally

 

[charles1dad]

@LL21 and @DaveC , you both appreciate the point @Kingrex was making.
Charles

 

[bonzo75]

Well I find Duo XDs much better than O96s and the like. But you have to be ok with active bass which isn’t your fav. They is integrated correctly, finally

i don’t mind the active bass of Martin Logan hybrids and audionec. With Duos I don’t like their midrange, the forward sound either. the trio always sounds so much more musical and relaxed than the duo.

 

[wil]

i don’t mind the active bass of Martin Logan hybrids and audionec. With Duos I don’t like their midrange, the forward sound either. the trio always sounds so much more musical and relaxed than the duo.

That’s one of the reasons I liked the Bakoon amp— it ameliorated the forward nature of the speaker.

 

[Cyrus]

A speaker doesn't have foresight into who it's owner will be, what music she / he will play, which components etc. precede it, and the room it will grace, etc.. Far more important (for me) is how I'm 'informed' by the designer/builder; their goals and preferences; the material/build/driver choices, etc..

If I primarily listened to large scale classical recordings, I would have made a very different choice in speaker and amplification. I was well aware of this prior to committing. [For reference, I have a single full range driver paired to a 2A3 amp].

Having said this, I have noticed my enjoyment and listening percentage of large scale classical recordings has increased; AND also better than expected performance across genres not typically associated as 'ideal' with a single full range driver.

As is usual, I find myself in purgatory (traditional def.) ...desiring a final solution along @Atmasphere 's position yet existing (happily) in @Kingrex and @DaveC 's world.

 

[MadFloyd]

I think a single driver can sound the best for simple music without frequency extremes but it falls apart on large scale classical. A large 4-way may be good for the same classical but it's much harder to get that big speaker to sound great on simple music, and ime it'll never be as good as something like a Feastex or AER in a simple BR cabinet driven by a small SET amp.

Then there's rock music, Led Zeppelin probably sounds best on something closer to a PA speaker with paper drivers and a big PP tube amp, it's hard to listen to at high volumes on many hifi systems.

Then there's intimate jazz, you really need a horn/set for that.

And electronica, you want something with great low-end capability.

Yes, I've yet to hear a system that can do all genres, particularly rock which needs a PA type speaker system. Totally agree about electronica as well.

 

[tima]

I owned a pair of Wilson Alexia 2s. What genre of music should be avoided with those speakers? I don't expect 'perfect' sonics (however you want to describe that.)

I like classical music from Baroque to Shostakovich. What type of speaker should I buy? Let's say my budget is $70k.

 

[charles1dad]

@Cyrus
“I have noticed my enjoyment and listening percentage of large scale classical recordings has increased; AND also better than expected performance across genres not typically associated as 'ideal' with a single full range driver.”

Impressive outcome with your 2A3 SET and single driver speaker. How well do things stay together during complex large scale symphonic music passages? Do you maintain good separation?
Charles

 

[morricab]

That’s one of the reasons I liked the Bakoon amp— it ameliorated the forward nature of the speaker.

So did Audiopax and Thomas Mayer electronics

 

[bonzo75]

That’s one of the reasons I liked the Bakoon amp— it ameliorated the forward nature of the speaker.

Not sure why you are defending the duo given that all your negative comments against “horns” come from your duo experience.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, I've yet to hear a system that can do all genres, particularly rock which needs a PA type speaker system. Totally agree about electronica as well.

i have yet to hear a system do rock as well as dual FLH. And Leif’s system is top three on the forum whether reproducing solo violin, cello, Beethoven 9th, audiophile vocals, Doors and black sabbath. I don’t have electronica videos but given it does upto 15hz with aplomb should cover that.

TAD 4003 dual FLH continued – Zero Distortion

zero-distortion.org

 

[bonzo75]

For those who say horns cannot rock… You get the salute

For those who say horns cannot rock…we salute you – Zero Distortion

zero-distortion.org

 

[morricab]

i have yet to hear a system do rock as well as dual FLH. And Leif’s system is top three on the forum whether reproducing solo violin, cello, Beethoven 9th, audiophile vocals, Doors and black sabbath. I don’t have electronica videos but given it does upto 15hz with aplomb should cover that.

TAD 4003 dual FLH continued – Zero Distortion

zero-distortion.org

This isn't the most up to date system, right? He now has the big Klipsch Jubilee type horn now,or?

 

[bonzo75]

This isn't the most up to date system, right? He now has the big Klipsch Jubilee type horn now,or?

Yes he has that horn now and also has changed his transformer to nanocrystalline. Plus, some of the videos I linked were without the DaVa and the Melco, so his analog is better now. He has one driver less now (TAD 2002 is gone with 4003 covering the entire range from 550 hz up). He is also experimenting with DRC from 550.

But imo all that is voicing. When you have a good horn speaker that does 110 db till 75 hz, then the bass horn does 100 @ 30 and 92 @ 15, you can put nano or superpermalloy transformer, 300b or GM70, 2a3, 845, 211, EL84 push pull, EIMAC tubes, lamm, kondo, NAF, mastersound, roll tubes to your liking, and it will all excel for all genres of music.

 

[LL21]

Yes he has that horn now and also has changed his transformer to nanocrystalline. Plus, some of the videos I linked were without the DaVa and the Melco, so his analog is better now. He has one driver less now (TAD 2002 is gone with 4003 covering the entire range from 550 hz up). He is also experimenting with DRC from 550.

But imo all that is voicing. When you have a good horn speaker that does 110 db till 75 hz, then the bass horn does 100 @ 30 and 92 @ 15, you can pur nano or superpermalloy transformer, 300b or GM70, 2a3, 845, 211, EL84 push pull, EIMAC tubes, lamm, kondo, NAF, mastersound, roll tubes to your liking, and it will all excel for all genres of music.

I remain fascinated by this kind of setup along with DDKs (unfortunately just way too big). I have read some of your comments about the Avantgarde Trios and their own dual horn subs. I happened to hear them earlier this week...by any chance do you have any insights into the setup in Seoul, Korea (Hifi Club)...there are photos around this site...using (surprisingly to me) MSB monos.

 

[PeterA]

i have yet to hear a system do rock as well as dual FLH. And Leif’s system is top three on the forum whether reproducing solo violin, cello, Beethoven 9th, audiophile vocals, Doors and black sabbath. I don’t have electronica videos but given it does upto 15hz with aplomb should cover that.

TAD 4003 dual FLH continued – Zero Distortion

zero-distortion.org

Nice article about Leif’s system with the videos. I had hoped you would post some videos of your recent trip to the US of all those wonderful systems you heard. You do a great service with your documentations. I appreciate learning about such a nice variety of different systems.