"Do Vinyl Records Actually Sound Better Than CDs? We Take A Closer Look" in Slashgear

[wil]

You keep saying there are great jazz musicians after Coltrane, Evans etc. And yet neither you nor @the sound of Tao have named those new musicians as good as the old ones. As well as the albums.

You may not like the music of the following artists, because you seem to have a very narrow perspective. But here's a partial list (of 50) jazz artists from my library.

Great jazz didn't end with Coltrane and Evans.
Most are quality recordings as well:

Carla Bley
Matthew Shipp
Mary Halvorson
Bill Frissel
Pat Metheny - Bright Sized Life (album listed 'cause by far his best imo)
John McLaughlin - Extrapolation ( " ")
Kenny Wheeler
Louis Hayes
Gary Peacock
Jack Dejohnette
Paul Bley
John Abercrombie
Ralph Towner
Tony Marino
Sun Ra
Barre Phillips
Steve Kuhn
Tom Schuler
Dave Holland
Paul Motian
Bobo Stenson
Julia Hulsmann
Samo Salamon
Daniel Levin Trio
Ellery Eskelin
Whit Dickey
Ole Amund Gjersuik
Martin Kuchen
Jen Joneleit
Ivo Perelman
Almut Kuhne
Erico Rava
Rueben Radding
Steve Swallow
Oliver Lake
Larry Coryell
Gonzalo Rubalcabo
Keith Jarrett
Henry Threadgill
Chick Corea
Andrew Cyrille
Gary Burton
Mat Walerian
Daniel Carter
Rob Brown
William Parker
Tomasz Stanko
Myra Melford
Wadada Leo Smith
Don Cherry
Okuden Quartet
Pierre Favre
Darius Jones

 

[mtemur]

You may not like the music of the following artists, because you seem to have a very narrow perspective. But here's a partial list (of 50) jazz artists from my library.

Great jazz didn't end with Coltrane and Evans.
Most are quality recordings as well:

Carla Bley
Matthew Shipp
Mary Halvorson
Bill Frissel
Pat Metheny - Bright Sized Life (album listed 'cause by far his best imo)
John McLaughlin - Extrapolation ( " ")
Kenny Wheeler
Louis Hayes
Gary Peacock
Jack Dejohnette
Paul Bley
John Abercrombie
Ralph Towner
Tony Marino
Sun Ra
Barre Phillips
Steve Kuhn
Tom Schuler
Dave Holland
Paul Motian
Bobo Stenson
Julia Hulsmann
Samo Salamon
Daniel Levin Trio
Ellery Eskelin
Whit Dickey
Ole Amund Gjersuik
Martin Kuchen
Jen Joneleit
Ivo Perelman
Almut Kuhne
Erico Rava
Rueben Radding
Steve Swallow
Oliver Lake
Larry Coryell
Gonzalo Rubalcabo
Keith Jarrett
Henry Threadgill
Chick Corea
Andrew Cyrille
Gary Burton
Mat Walerian
Daniel Carter
Rob Brown
William Parker
Tomasz Stanko
Myra Melford
Wadada Leo Smith
Don Cherry
Okuden Quartet
Pierre Favre
Darius Jones

You don't know me or my music taste let alone my music knowledge but this doesn't hold you to call my musical taste "narrow perspective".
I only shared a few examples like Coltrane and Evans for the sake of discussion and IOT keep it simple and focused cause I said it before it's not a naming contest. You have the illusion that my musical taste is limited with those names. What a poor judgement.

Anyway you still cannot find a single new artist equal or better than Coltrane or Evans but share a list in order to continue arguing. And evaded my question with "Most are quality recordings as well". Because you are very well aware that it will look silly whoever you put from that list against Coltrane.

 

[hopkins]

Because you are very well aware that it will look silly whoever you put from that list against Coltrane.

You are the one looking silly.

 

[hopkins]

No, it only proves the quality is downslope. None of us heard Beethoven alive or witnessed the performance of his work but most probably his time was the prime of classical music.

Silly as this answer. Had I mentioned Bach you would have given the same answer.

You are just trolling.

 

[wil]

You don't know me or my music taste let alone my music knowledge but this doesn't hold you to call my musical taste "narrow perspective".
I only shared a few examples like Coltrane and Evans for the sake of discussion and IOT keep it simple and focused cause I said it before it's not a naming contest. You have the illusion that my musical taste is limited with those names. What a poor judgement.

Anyway you still cannot find a single new artist equal or better than Coltrane or Evans but share a list in order to continue arguing. And evaded my question with "Most are quality recordings as well". Because you are very well aware that it will look silly whoever you put from that list against Coltrane.

You kept badgering for a list and now you’re complaining that you got a list.

I can only imagine how Coltrane or Evans or any other musician would respond to being put on a pedestal above the likes of Chick Corea, Gary Peacock, Rob Brown, Matthew Shipp, Andrew Cyrille...

This a waste of time.

 

[sbo6]

If great music still exist as good as before the Cd era then where are the new Stokowski, Munch, Karajan, Lee Morgan, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Pink Floyd, The Doors, Michael Jackson etc?

How good the music is recorded and how it’s perceived by people emotionally cannot be separated. I don’t mean just pure recording quality here. I mean qualities enable emotional engagement, quick acceptance and bonding with music. I don’t know what creates those qualities but IMHO they are not as high as they have been before Cd era. Something must have been lost in the transition. It is not sincere, intimate as it has been. These qualities affect people’s connection with music. How good an album is received by people affects an artist’s creativity. I don’t think Pink Floyd or others would continue to record if they haven’t sold millions of albums. Even if they continue to record could they still do great music when nobody listens?

Recording quality or qualities bonds music with people. Reaching more people and their appreciation drives artist to do better. It’s a circle.

You touched on multiple points. My attempt to summarize and respond below:

- Is post - CD music as emotionally engaging as pre - CD music?

There have been studies done that show mainstream music (excludes Jazz, Classical) is compositionally less complex as post - CD era, or somewhere thereabout. Rick Beato has an excellent YT channel and he discusses for musicians and / or non - musicians this topic.

IME, for pop music, I feel the "watering down" of musical content came with MTV, because at that point video carried as much weight as the audio. That, plus the advent of extravagant production capabilities changed the artform forever, in some cases for the better, in some, worse. Looks and stage presence mattered as much (if not more) than the music. That's not to say that there is not creative pop or pop rock, but the % that makes it to the radio is less than years ago.

However, for Jazz and Classical (Post - CD as you called it), there are many amazing artists creating beautiful creative music. Snarky Puppy, Cecile McLorin Salvant, Kamasi Washington as some examples.

- The direct relationship between highly adopted music (measured by quantity of purchases) and continued artists' musical creativity is key to continued quality music.

Agreed, unless you write in your basement for yourself .
Also, with success comes connections, relationships that may results in co-writing / influencing.

 

[Rt66indierock]

The article contains a lot of misinformation; opinions proffered as objective facts; disingenuous arguments; ignorant and misleading "defenses" to alleged criticisms of vinyl; totally gratuitous and irrelevant politics; advocacy for government control of private manufacturing; and even some laughable vinyl may be giving you and your family cancer hysteria.

This article is the least informed and most misleading article on this subject I've ever read. Add to that the gratuitous political and economic advocacy . . . and I regret starting this thread!

Ron, threads like this advance an important agenda of mine so don’t regret starting it.

You went to Rochester and Chicago, so you could research why the Americans who created digital audio and video did so and their reasons. I’d be curious what you find because I was there when digital video and audio was just a theory.

 

[hopkins]

IME, for pop music, I feel the "watering down" of musical content came with MTV, because at that point video carried as much weight as the audio. That, plus the advent of extravagant production capabilities changed the artform forever, in some cases for the better, in some, worse. Looks and stage presence mattered as much (if not more) than the music. That's not to say that there is not creative pop or pop rock, but the % that makes it to the radio is less than years ago.

I don't really see how the use of a new media (video) could be said to have drained creativity from the music. Looks and stage presence have been an integral part of music for a long time (from vaudeville, to Little Richard, Elvis, Warhol's Factory, Parliament/Funkadelic, Sun Ra, Kiss, Queen, Pink Floyd, etc, the list goes on...).

These debates about the quality of current music have probably taken place in every era, simply because time is often needed to evaluate and sort things out.

 

[hopkins]

One last thing about this discussion...

It's always interesting and surprising to see what musicians themselves listen to. In this article, the musician/critic/academic Lewis Porter uncovers an old article written by the owner of a record store in NYC in which he mentions some of the favorite records of his famous customers:

Listing Favorite Records of Lester Young, Miles Davis, Ellington, et al, 1958

We previously mentioned society columnist Dorothy Kilgallen and the fact that she was a huge jazz fan. Well, today we’re looking at a column that appeared as part of her series, but which she did not write. As you’ll see, this article was written by a guest, Eugene St. Jean, night manager of...

lewisporter.substack.com

One of Charlie Parker's favorites:

Two of Lester Young's:

The self-proclaimed arbitrors of "great" music should give this some thought

 

[KPC]

This seems like a pissing contest like which painting is better - brush strokes, paint color, number of fans, era created….

Most conflicts are simply a difference of opinion and not factual. Personally enjoying the music is the goal, getting people into our camp aka way of thinking seems foolish, divisive, and a waste of time.

 

[Rexp]

You may not like the music of the following artists, because you seem to have a very narrow perspective. But here's a partial list (of 50) jazz artists from my library.

Great jazz didn't end with Coltrane and Evans.
Most are quality recordings as well:

Carla Bley
Matthew Shipp
Mary Halvorson
Bill Frissel
Pat Metheny - Bright Sized Life (album listed 'cause by far his best imo)
John McLaughlin - Extrapolation ( " ")
Kenny Wheeler
Louis Hayes
Gary Peacock
Jack Dejohnette
Paul Bley
John Abercrombie
Ralph Towner
Tony Marino
Sun Ra
Barre Phillips
Steve Kuhn
Tom Schuler
Dave Holland
Paul Motian
Bobo Stenson
Julia Hulsmann
Samo Salamon
Daniel Levin Trio
Ellery Eskelin
Whit Dickey
Ole Amund Gjersuik
Martin Kuchen
Jen Joneleit
Ivo Perelman
Almut Kuhne
Erico Rava
Rueben Radding
Steve Swallow
Oliver Lake
Larry Coryell
Gonzalo Rubalcabo
Keith Jarrett
Henry Threadgill
Chick Corea
Andrew Cyrille
Gary Burton
Mat Walerian
Daniel Carter
Rob Brown
William Parker
Tomasz Stanko
Myra Melford
Wadada Leo Smith
Don Cherry
Okuden Quartet
Pierre Favre
Darius Jones

So you prefer Pat Matheny's pre CD, analog recorded, albums?

 

[Rexp]

You touched on multiple points. My attempt to summarize and respond below:

- Is post - CD music as emotionally engaging as pre - CD music?

There have been studies done that show mainstream music (excludes Jazz, Classical) is compositionally less complex as post - CD era, or somewhere thereabout. Rick Beato has an excellent YT channel and he discusses for musicians and / or non - musicians this topic.

IME, for pop music, I feel the "watering down" of musical content came with MTV, because at that point video carried as much weight as the audio. That, plus the advent of extravagant production capabilities changed the artform forever, in some cases for the better, in some, worse. Looks and stage presence mattered as much (if not more) than the music. That's not to say that there is not creative pop or pop rock, but the % that makes it to the radio is less than years ago.

However, for Jazz and Classical (Post - CD as you called it), there are many amazing artists creating beautiful creative music. Snarky Puppy, Cecile McLorin Salvant, Kamasi Washington as some examples.

- The direct relationship between highly adopted music (measured by quantity of purchases) and continued artists' musical creativity is key to continued quality music.

Agreed, unless you write in your basement for yourself .
Also, with success comes connections, relationships that may results in co-writing / influencing.

Out of interest, in your opinion, (music, unlike HiFi, is subjective), if Cecile is an amazing creative artist, how would you rate Nina Simone?

 

[sbo6]

Out of interest, in your opinion, (music, unlike HiFi, is subjective), if Cecile is an amazing creative artist, how would you rate Nina Simone?

She was a very talented, singer and piano player. Curious why you ask and why you might think I'd feel differently?

 

[Rexp]

She was a very talented, singer and piano player. Curious why you ask and why you might think I'd feel differently?

I wasn't sure what you think, which is why I asked. Regarding Kamasi, I think he's excellent but struggle to find good recordings, any recommendations?

 

[wil]

So you prefer Pat Matheny's pre CD, analog recorded, albums?

No, for me, the album Bright Sized Life is the best music he produced. More straight ahead jazz guitar rather than the atmospheric stuff. It has nothing to do with when it was recorded!

 

[Rexp]

No, for me, the album Bright Sized Life is the best music he produced. More straight ahead jazz guitar rather than the atmospheric stuff. It has nothing to do with when it was recorded!

No, just a coincidence..

 

[sbo6]

I wasn't sure what you think, which is why I asked. Regarding Kamasi, I think he's excellent but struggle to find good recordings, any recommendations?

The Epic is a pretty good recording and VG music IMO. Enjoy!

 

[tima]

Have you heard early Pink Floyd ? I doubt they sold a lot of records back then. They still kept making records.

A Saucerful of Secrets

 

[the sound of Tao]

You may not like the music of the following artists, because you seem to have a very narrow perspective. But here's a partial list (of 50) jazz artists from my library.

Great jazz didn't end with Coltrane and Evans.
Most are quality recordings as well:

Carla Bley
Matthew Shipp
Mary Halvorson
Bill Frissel
Pat Metheny - Bright Sized Life (album listed 'cause by far his best imo)
John McLaughlin - Extrapolation ( " ")
Kenny Wheeler
Louis Hayes
Gary Peacock
Jack Dejohnette
Paul Bley
John Abercrombie
Ralph Towner
Tony Marino
Sun Ra
Barre Phillips
Steve Kuhn
Tom Schuler
Dave Holland
Paul Motian
Bobo Stenson
Julia Hulsmann
Samo Salamon
Daniel Levin Trio
Ellery Eskelin
Whit Dickey
Ole Amund Gjersuik
Martin Kuchen
Jen Joneleit
Ivo Perelman
Almut Kuhne
Erico Rava
Rueben Radding
Steve Swallow
Oliver Lake
Larry Coryell
Gonzalo Rubalcabo
Keith Jarrett
Henry Threadgill
Chick Corea
Andrew Cyrille
Gary Burton
Mat Walerian
Daniel Carter
Rob Brown
William Parker
Tomasz Stanko
Myra Melford
Wadada Leo Smith
Don Cherry
Okuden Quartet
Pierre Favre
Darius Jones

Some fantastic jazz sitting there in your library Wil, looks like we’ve got many shared jazz likes already but also quite a few names there for me to check out… Very much appreciated.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Maybe many music reviewers and musicians as well as music lovers just don’t see the magic invisible line that was drawn somewhere in the 70’s that apparently turned all music and musicians instantly into unworthy crap and made all their music no longer worth listening to… perhaps many of us can still differentiate between the music and performance quality as separate to the recording quality… go figure

Oh and not everyone sees Karajan as the go to conductor… in fact some of his ardent fans should know he was big promoter or the transition to the digital era and please note not all analogue recordings are fantastic or worth listening to…


Yes, and apparently there are benchmark performances of the classical repertoire being made right up to now… apparently all musos just didn’t become rubbish 40 years ago…