Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve williams
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Mike
its always great to see you and to share stories. We’ve known each other for at least 20 years. It was a fun day and thank you for your comments
I’m a hair away from my end game as you and I discussed today. Stay tuned
its always great to see you and to share stories. We’ve known each other for at least 20 years. It was a fun day and thank you for your comments
I’m a hair away from my end game as you and I discussed today. Stay tuned
Glad you guys had fun. It's tough to get subs dialed in, and more so the bigger the speakers (in general, unless you have a truly large room). But once dialed in, there literally is no down side since we all have room nodes that subs help reconcile and they can add presence along with added gestalt should that be your cup of tea.
easy to say
Trust me I worked intensively for 3 months to dial them in. When I thought we reached that point the sub was virtually volumeless. When people who were in the recording industry or speaker manufacturing industry listed visited me, there was NOT ONE of them who said that subs were a benefit in my room. In fact they all told me to get rid of the subs. It took me 3years to finally turn them off and another 6 months to remove them from my room as they still reacted passively with the room. As they say, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Yesterday when Mike visited I played him several tracks that I commonly use to evaluate the deep bass in may room. Mike seemed to like it as he commented on several occasions as to how tight and coherent the bass was
TBH I have never looked back since I removed the F113's from my room. I agree with your postulate that it is difficult with big speakers unless you have a large room. Well I do have large speakers and I don't have a big room . Case closed
I agree with you. IMHO we need space to dial the subs, particularly with big speakers . As you say one great advantage of subs when used with full range speakers is that they can be located well away from the main speakers, filling nulls and avoiding the same peaks of the main speakers.
Each room and system is a different case that should be analyzed by itself.
Steve, can I ask if you measured when dialing in your subs? Without measuring to guide you as to how / where to set up, it's almost impossible to get a seamless transition from the mains to the subs.
I measured each and every time I played a song To say I measured hundreds of times is an understatement.
Steve, I meant measuring via frequency sweeps, not with music. Picking songs and playing them and changing settings will never get the best integration. Trust me I've set up many subs and have taken hundreds if not thousands of measurement via REW.
You have me beat.
It took me 3 1/2 years to listen to what others in the industry advised me and every one of them (not just a few) said the subs in my room were unnecessary
Again I agree. My issue was the size of my speakers in relation to the size of my room. The subs no matter what I did proved counter productive
Steve, I wish you the best with your system and I'm sure it sounds excellent, however industry experts can't bend the laws of physics. No typically sized room is free from significant dips and peaks <500Hz. Only subs and / or EQ can rectify that. As such, you are likely living with the lesser of two evils - living with room modes versus ineffective sub integration. It's really as simple as that.
FWIW: I have a friend with the same speakers and a similar sized room as yours and his JLA Gotham made a world of difference filling in a huge ~60Hz dip without any detrimental affect. He has since moved up to Wilson Thor's Hammer subs which do an even better job versus one Gotham.
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Just your theory
Trust me when I say this wasn't my first rodeo. In my last house I had a much larger room and had a pair of well integrated F213's in my room
I had an acoustician help in the design of the room and according to her final calculations there were no room modes. And by the way, she is not an audio dealer who after years stated she was an acoustician. She has a PHD in acoustics which combined mathematics, electrical engineering and acoustics. Her specialty when she did her post doc was doing underwater mapping for the DoD.
As the room was being built out she took measurements and told me to move my rack 6" closer to the door. When I asked why she said her mapping showed that doing such would ameliorate a room mode.I was shocked that it did and her final measurements showed no more
So say what you want. You are correct to a degree but I can tell you that it was totally unnecessary in my room
Just your theory
Trust me when I say this wasn't my first rodeo. In my last house I had a much larger room and had a pair of well integrated F213's in my room
I had an acoustician help in the design of the room and according to her final calculations there were no room modes. And by the way, she is not an audio dealer who after years stated she was an acoustician. She has a PHD in acoustics which combined mathematics, electrical engineering and acoustics. Her specialty when she did her post doc was doing underwater mapping for the DoD.
As the room was being built out she took measurements and told me to move my rack 6" closer to the door. When I asked why she said her mapping showed that doing such would ameliorate a room mode.I was shocked that it did and her final measurements showed no more
So say what you want. You are correct to a degree but I can tell you that it was totally unnecessary in my room
Steve, would you be willing to share the frequency response graph of your room? Also, "no room mode" = ? +/- 5DB,? +/-10DB? If she's able to remove all room modes +/- 2DB (close to the human ear limits) she should win the Nobel prize..
Steve, again I'm not doubting your system sounds very good, I'm saying no one can defy physics. If she can swizzle things in the room and employ treatment that can affect, musical instrument common frequencies such as 30Hz (=~35' long) to make your room "flat" then she needs much more attention than she's likely getting. My experience and scientific background doubts it's truly flat. Doesn't make it bad sounding, just a reality that we all live with.
How do you know what she has even done
I have 8 Helmholtz resonators in my ceiling that address the issues you discuss. I respect your scientific background but honestly without seeing or hearing my room and not knowing what was done to my room I feel you really are discussing something which you really don't know anything about
I understand where you are coming from but as they say, you never talk about an Indian until you've walked a mile in his mocassins
Knowing my room and what treatments were done I feel quite confident about the absence of room modes. as for set up of the subs, it was an ongoing daily exercise for almost 3 months bringing them to where I felt it sounded "just ok"
I can say with confidence that the room sounds better now without the subs than when they were in the room
I'm not trying to be argumentative as I understand your position and don't disagree with it
Finally as to the notion of using REW or other forms of DRC that will never happen in my room even though I understand the efficacy
Sorry if I came across as a hard ass
Not at all Steve, and I also don't want to come across as busting chops. I would honestly love to be able to see the frequency response of your room which I assume your consultant provided because if it is true as you say it is (room is flat), it would be great information for many audiophiles looking for better sound without sub or EQ intervention.
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