Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

[microstrip]

So your suggestion is to change speakers and or electronics. It’s never going to happen. I can tell you that over those 3 years Marty was here in 3 separate occasions and each time we tried over and over to dial in the subs. When we thought it sounded good we discovered the sub master volume control was virtually off. Marty is never a quitter but I believe he too felt it was an exercise in futility

Where am I am suggesting you to change anything? You have a great system that you enjoy and surely sounds great.

I am just analyzing your and Marty findings and trying to correlate them with some technical aspects. We have now found many reasons why you should NOT have subs!

 

[sbo6]

Your reliance on frequency plots as the main arbiter for subwoofer set-up erodes any confidence that you are very knowledgeable in this area. I would have been more impressed by your abilities if you told me you had laser interferometry impulse data since phase error minimization is critical to subwoofer integration, as well as distortion data. However, I think that we would probably agree that in the end, the only thing that matters is the resultant sound. If you're happy with that, no matter how you got there or what tools you used, that's really all that counts.

Frequency plots are only 1 tool, I never stated is was exclusive. Be careful to not make assumptions.

 

[sbo6]

Good summary, Marty. But we have to add that Steve is pairing the Alexandria (large units, front port) with the Lamm ML3 at 8 ohms without feedback. This makes the success of the addition of the sub even less probable.

The XLF is more flexible than the X2 in this aspect - the possibility of changing port orientation strongly modifies the interaction of bass with the room. It is also a curse, one more situation to evaluate ...

IME and in general integration of subs with mains from most challenging to most successful is as follows:

- Rear ported mains full range + ported sub(s)
- Front ported mains full range + ported sub(s)
- Front ported mains full range + sealed (sub(s)
- Non - ported mains full range + sealed (sub(s)
- Non ported mains rolled off @~60 - 80Hz + sealed sub(s)

When Steve had subs did you experiment with blocking\stuffing the ports? Did you try an external low pass crossover rolling off the XLFs? With your expertise I'm sure you did, can you please provide your results?

 

[NorthStar]

IME and in general integration of subs with mains from most challenging to most successful is as follows:

- Rear ported mains full range + ported sub(s)
- Front ported mains full range + ported sub(s)
- Front ported mains full range + sealed (sub(s)
- Non - ported mains full range + sealed (sub(s)
- Non ported mains rolled off @~60 - 80Hz + sealed sub(s)

When Steve had subs did you experiment with blocking\stuffing the ports? Did you try an external low pass crossover rolling off the XLFs? With your expertise I'm sure you did, can you please provide your results?

Hi Steve, just for best friendship advancement of all things, would you happen to have some of your room's measurements?

Best cheers,
Bob

 

[sbo6]

I'd be happy to share when I have some time to sift through the many. I encourage the experts who worked on Steve's room to do the same since I'm sure many would love to see the benefits achieved without subs and employed by an expert Consultant.

 

[steve williams]

first off it is Micro who has the XLF. I have X2 Series ll Alexandria

No I did not stuff the speaker port. The X2 is front ported

As for playing with the crossover I told you I do not nor will I ever do DRC and without DRC the crossover on all Wilson speakers is proprietary and fixed

 

[sbo6]

There is no need for DRC. JLA makes a matching external crossover for their subs. With the amount of $ in your system and for an extra ~$3K this would have been my first recommendation for a more seamless integration. No laser interferometry impulse data is likely required.

https://www.jlaudio.com/cr-1-home-audio-subwoofer-crossovers-96020

 

[steve williams]

I’m well aware of the JL Crossover. Marty had it for a short while and Micro IIRC might still be using one

 

[microstrip]

There is no need for DRC. JLA makes a matching external crossover for their subs. With the amount of $ in your system and for an extra ~$3K this would have been my first recommendation for a more seamless integration. No laser interferometry impulse data is likely required.

https://www.jlaudio.com/cr-1-home-audio-subwoofer-crossovers-96020

I owned this crossover with the F113mk2 until very recently - IMHO it is mandatory to integrate the subs with the Alexandria's. The damping control would allow the fine tune of the integration, something not possible with just the subs.

IMHO no sub can be used in Steve current system because the subs are very close to the X2 and the output impedance of the ML3 is greater than 3 ohms - damping is around 1 at the crossover frequency. If you have another source in the same zone it will probably acoustically couple with the main speaker woofers, muddling the bass. Probably the acoustician who treated the room considered the equipment to be used in this room.

 

[marty]

IME and in general integration of subs with mains from most challenging to most successful is as follows:

- Rear ported mains full range + ported sub(s)
- Front ported mains full range + ported sub(s)
- Front ported mains full range + sealed (sub(s)
- Non - ported mains full range + sealed (sub(s)
- Non ported mains rolled off @~60 - 80Hz + sealed sub(s)

When Steve had subs did you experiment with blocking\stuffing the ports? Did you try an external low pass crossover rolling off the XLFs? With your expertise I'm sure you did, can you please provide your results?

I agree with your rank order- makes sense to me. I did not try stuffing the ports of Steve's speakers. I tried it on mine and quickly dismissed it. I also tried the pairing of the JL crossover to augment the bottoms with the JL Gotham v2 /Alexandria S2 combination. Again, some plusses but mostly minuses. The most egregious was that as good as the JL crossover is, it cannot avoid corrupting the high pass output into the amps driving the Alexandrias. This leaves me in my present configuration; namely running the Wilsons full range, and augmenting with the bottom with the Gothams only (I sold the JL crossover a while ago) using a 24 dB slope and crossing them over at about 26-28 Hz. That too is a trade off, but on some days, I can live with it. On other days, I realize that I seek and better long term solution. I can envision a used XLF in my future. There are other considerations but my sense is that whatever it may be, it will likely not be a system requiring separate subwoofer augmentation.

 

[steve williams]

Steve

I’m not trying to be a contrarian but TBH I’m just not interested. I’m betting I’ve been in this hobby for longer than you are old. I’ve been down all of those rabbit holes and did all of the testing and made many blunders. I’ve said in this blog that I’m one step away from my endgame and then my system is at the point that no matter what comes along I am loving my sound and at that point all I want to do is play and enjoy the music. I have also said that IF I were to do one more thing it would be speakers but at this point the synergy of my system has brought it to a level that I never thought was attainable. As Marty said what’s most important is not the measurements but whether you have music that keeps you up all night rather than to keep tweaking to reach a desired measurable result.

I can summarize very succinctly as to what IMO in the last 3-5 years has brought me to where I am

1. First and foremost was my ability to plan the room before it was even built taking into account all of the measurements that were taken by my acoustician who took measurements along the way
Everything from electrical wiring using a separate dedicated sub panel box for the room to acoustic treatments done to the room along the way. Attention was directed to lighting, HVAC, choice of flooring, sub flooring and OEM product below the subfloor that’s majestic the tire floor essentially a bass trap All Furutech AC outlets and each outlet in its own dedicated circuit. Special drapes around the room with a specific inverted horizontal 2.5/1 pleating to remove room modes The drapes are lined with another OEM product that is very thin but when sound hits it , it is like hitting 2” of fiberglass insulation. Quietrock rather than sheet rock that was glued and screwed off seam of the advent sheet rock Solid core door when closed results in the room being totally closed and pressurized. Eight Helmholtz resonators as mentioned in the ceiling Lutron lighting controlwhich has zero noise

So first and foremost is the room and this was a special project as my friends were all betting against its success. Me and the acoustician were in this right from the beginning. even the carpet is acoustic grade. I say all this as my room was built literally on top of my living room which had a 20 foot ceiling. So it was important that nothing be heard below. I capped my living room at 9 feet and built the room above. It’s all detailed in this blog

These next three are for me the tweaks or add ons that I felt boosted my system to the level it’s at
Critical Mass Systems Rack ( thank you JackD201who has become like the kid brother I never had)

A full loom of Masterbuilt Ultra cables and PC’s

Finally the use of Center Stage feet under all of my equipment and sitting on CMS shelves ( bias here as I represent the product)

All roads lead to Rome. Mine is but one of them. I write all of this with a smile Steve as I truly get what you’re saying and I do want to meet you next time I’m in Austin. The reality for me is the peace and contentment I have reached with my system. This hobby is a journey not a destination. And I’m truly one step from my endgame.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I had an acoustician help in the design of the room and according to her final calculations there were no room modes.

I have 8 Helmholtz resonators in my ceiling...

Knowing my room and what treatments were done I feel quite confident about the absence of room modes.

I can say with confidence that the room sounds better now without the subs than when they were in the room.

My natural instinct as a subwoofer system manufacturer is highly predictable... but I DO BELIEVE you. The things a good acoustician can do when turned loose on a project are amazing. Eight Helmholtz resonators (along with everything else she did, such as using an equipment rack to break up a mode) is a LOT of acoustic solution horsepower being applied to acoustic issues... ime is far a more effective approach than expecting two-dimensional (time & intensity) electronic horsepower (in the form of EQ) to address five-dimensional (time + intensity + three physical dimensions) acoustic issues.

Regarding in-room measurements, note that the ear does not hear curves the way the eye sees them, and your acoustician was designing for ears. In particular, the ear will average out peaks and dips that are fairly close to one another (within the same "critical band", which spans about 1/3 to 1/4 octave in the bass region, depending on which study you read). Also, dips tend to be perceptually benign, especially if they are narrow. On the other hand broad, gentle trends which may go unnoticed by the eye can be quite audible and objectionable. So imo a PERCEPTUALLY flat curve is a more realistic (and ultimately more desirable) goal than a VISUALLY flat curve.

 

[sbo6]

Steve

I’m not trying to be a contrarian but TBH I’m just not interested. I’m betting I’ve been in this hobby for longer than you are old. I’ve been down all of those rabbit holes and did all of the testing and made many blunders. I’ve said in this blog that I’m one step away from my endgame and then my system is at the point that no matter what comes along I am loving my sound and at that point all I want to do is play and enjoy the music. I have also said that IF I were to do one more thing it would be speakers but at this point the synergy of my system has brought it to a level that I never thought was attainable. As Marty said what’s most important is not the measurements but whether you have music that keeps you up all night rather than to keep tweaking to reach a desired measurable result.

I can summarize very succinctly as to what IMO in the last 3-5 years has brought me to where I am

1. First and foremost was my ability to plan the room before it was even built taking into account all of the measurements that were taken by my acoustician who took measurements along the way
Everything from electrical wiring using a separate dedicated sub panel box for the room to acoustic treatments done to the room along the way. Attention was directed to lighting, HVAC, choice of flooring, sub flooring and OEM product below the subfloor that’s majestic the tire floor essentially a bass trap All Furutech AC outlets and each outlet in its own dedicated circuit. Special drapes around the room with a specific inverted horizontal 2.5/1 pleating to remove room modes The drapes are lined with another OEM product that is very thin but when sound hits it , it is like hitting 2” of fiberglass insulation. Quietrock rather than sheet rock that was glued and screwed off seam of the advent sheet rock Solid core door when closed results in the room being totally closed and pressurized. Eight Helmholtz resonators as mentioned in the ceiling Lutron lighting controlwhich has zero noise

So first and foremost is the room and this was a special project as my friends were all betting against its success. Me and the acoustician were in this right from the beginning. even the carpet is acoustic grade. I say all this as my room was built literally on top of my living room which had a 20 foot ceiling. So it was important that nothing be heard below. I capped my living room at 9 feet and built the room above. It’s all detailed in this blog

These next three are for me the tweaks or add ons that I felt boosted my system to the level it’s at
Critical Mass Systems Rack ( thank you JackD201who has become like the kid brother I never had)

A full loom of Masterbuilt Ultra cables and PC’s

Finally the use of Center Stage feet under all of my equipment and sitting on CMS shelves ( bias here as I represent the product)

All roads lead to Rome. Mine is but one of them. I write all of this with a smile Steve as I truly get what you’re saying and I do want to meet you next time I’m in Austin. The reality for me is the peace and contentment I have reached with my system. This hobby is a journey not a destination. And I’m truly one step from my endgame.

And in the end that's all that counts. I'm glad you are enjoying your system, one of the best feelings in the world that just keeps giving. happy Listening Steve!


Steve

 

[sbo6]

I agree with your rank order- makes sense to me. I did not try stuffing the ports of Steve's speakers. I tried it on mine and quickly dismissed it. I also tried the pairing of the JL crossover to augment the bottoms with the JL Gotham v2 /Alexandria S2 combination. Again, some plusses but mostly minuses. The most egregious was that as good as the JL crossover is, it cannot avoid corrupting the high pass output into the amps driving the Alexandrias. This leaves me in my present configuration; namely running the Wilsons full range, and augmenting with the bottom with the Gothams only (I sold the JL crossover a while ago) using a 24 dB slope and crossing them over at about 26-28 Hz. That too is a trade off, but on some days, I can live with it. On other days, I realize that I seek and better long term solution. I can envision a used XLF in my future. There are other considerations but my sense is that whatever it may be, it will likely not be a system requiring separate subwoofer augmentation.

Thanks for the input Marty. Can I ask - what specifically was detrimental when using the CR1 in terms of corrupting the high pass output? Did you lose detail, clarity or? The CR1 was on my short list as I have not tried it yet and if it does anything negative to the mids / highs I wouldn't consider using it.

 

[sbo6]

My natural instinct as a subwoofer system manufacturer is highly predictable... but I DO BELIEVE you. The things a good acoustician can do when turned loose on a project are amazing. Eight Helmholtz resonators (along with everything else she did, such as using an equipment rack to break up a mode) is a LOT of acoustic solution horsepower being applied to acoustic issues... ime is far a more effective approach than expecting two-dimensional (time & intensity) electronic horsepower (in the form of EQ) to address five-dimensional (time + intensity + three physical dimensions) acoustic issues.

Regarding in-room measurements, note that the ear does not hear curves the way the eye sees them, and your acoustician was designing for ears. In particular, the ear will average out peaks and dips that are fairly close to one another (within the same "critical band", which spans about 1/3 to 1/4 octave in the bass region, depending on which study you read). Also, dips tend to be perceptually benign, especially if they are narrow. On the other hand broad, gentle trends which may go unnoticed by the eye can be quite audible and objectionable. So imo a PERCEPTUALLY flat curve is a more realistic (and ultimately more desirable) goal than a VISUALLY flat curve.

Right, and a perceptually flat curve does not = a flat frequency response, just ask Franklin Fletcher and Alvaro Munson.

Also, WRT dips being perceptually benign, the devil is in the details. It depends how much of a dip. Assuming a wide dip (as many rooms have <300hz) >5DB is easily audible.

 

[JackD201]

Marty, like you I give phase very, very high priority.

 

[JackD201]

Duke, you are spot on as usual.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Right, and a perceptually flat curve does not = a flat frequency response, just ask Franklin Fletcher and Alvaro Munson.

Imo Fletcher & Munson's equal-loudness curves do not tell us what the target frequency response is (and imo it isn't flat but rather gently downward-sloping), though they DO inform us about where the ear is most sensitive (3-4kHz ballpark), among other things.

Something very interesting is implied by the way equal-loudness curves bunch up south of 100 Hz, namely that improvements in in-room smoothness in the bass region pay unexpectedly large perceptual dividends. You see, a 5 dB change in SPL at 40 Hz is perceptually comparable to a 10 dB change in SPL at 1 kHz! (No wonder bass response peaks stick out like sore thumbs.) The good news is, a small improvement in smoothness in the bass region sounds like a much bigger improvement than we would have guessed from eyeballing the before-and-after curves.

 

[cjfrbw]

Makes me glad I don't have such 'Princess and the Pea' sensitivity to bass. If it's there, shakes my booty, and doesn't interfere with the primary imaging, I am happy.

I guess my tombstone will read: "He was almost but not quite to his Audio End Game".

 

[JackD201]

Makes me glad I don't have such 'Princess and the Pea' sensitivity to bass. If it's there, shakes my booty, and doesn't interfere with the primary imaging, I am happy.

I guess my tombstone will read: "He was almost but not quite to his Audio End Game".

My read on you Carl is that you don't have any peas to complain about. Sadly, bad bass affects the whole spectrum. It's a long time truism that no bass is better than bad bass. LOL I laugh but oh so may times, i agree!