I did not know that, that makes a great deal of sense. Thanks Duke.
Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve williams
- Start date
The problem with bass IMO and IME is that in most systems / rooms it's not very articulate. However once you hear excellent, articulate yet full bodied (when it should be) bass it's addictive and very difficult to go back. Also, there's a fine line between articulate bass and overly full bass. Subs often walk that line or too often cross it to bloat land. Some folks want the heft, some folks want the detail. The trick is getting both in our modest sized rooms; I like to call it the hippo ballerina...
I assume you were trying to reach a bit deeper by adding a sub, but that the net result was a step backwards rather than a step forwards.
Obviously I've never heard your system nor been to your room, and even if I had I wouldn't begin to know them as well as you, so this will be sheer speculation on my part.
Long long ago, in a galaxy far far away, speaker designers tried to bring balance to the force by perceptually matching the top-end extension to the bottom-end extension. So if a speaker went down to 25 Hz, it should go up to 20 kHz (if I recall correctly... this was, after all, long long ago). But if a speaker only went down to 50 Hz, then it should only go up to 10 kHz, so that it would still sound balanced.
Then along came the Spec Wars and greater top end extension equaled more sales. So speaker designers invented the Upper Bass Hump, which kinda sorta restored balance to the force.
Fast-forward to Steve's room and system, by all ears-on accounts a masterpiece within a masterpiece, wherein balance has been created... such that adding a sub loud enough to be audible degrades this precious balance, which (according to the ancient wisdom) matters more than any improvements in low-end extension.
So, here's a radical possible solution: Add a bit more top-end energy to restore balance by perceptually matching the additional bottom-end extension of the sub. But do this with a rear-firing or up-firing tweeter, not a forward-firing one, because we don't want to do anything that would mess with the first-arrival sound. The specifics matter and I won't get into them here and now, just tossing this out as a highly unorthodox idea... whose roots arguably trace back to a time long long ago...
Imo this proposal is not entirely theoretical. I have used rear-firing tweeters when adding subwoofers to balanced-on-their-own fullrange driver speakers, such that once everything was dialed in, balance had been restored but with nearly two octaves added to the bottom end.
It took George Lucas and friends six episodes, some of them epically cring-worthy, to restore balance to the force, and I'm not sure they ever really did. So this may not be as simple as I have made it out to be. And I understand that the subwoofer ship has already sailed from Steve's room, so this is all just hypothetical anyway... unless it has only sailed fifteen or twenty feet down the hall, into the next room...
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If you have a nasty in-room bass peak, it will dictate how loud the sub(s) can be before crossing that line. Let's say you have a 6 dB peak (happens all the time), and you can tolerate a 3 dB peak. You will have to set the level of the subs at -3 dB to stay out of bloat land, and that means your ears are being cheated out of full-power bass.
The good news is, the more you bring down that sticks-out-like-a-sore-thumb peak, the louder you can turn up the subs before bloat sets in. So... smooth bass (which is also "fast bass" bass because the time-domain response tracks the frequency response in the bass region) is one key to being able to turn the sub(s) up loud enough for satisfyingly full bass without bloat. The other is (arguably) the balance thing described in my preceding post.
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I would say that if you have more than three audiophiles in the room, best just to cut off the bass below 50 Hz because somebody won't like it no matter how endeavored.
Agreed, and this is where features like parametric EQs help such as JLA subs. Also, I would also add that bloat is directly related to level. Most 2 channel rooms cannot "manage" higher volume low frequencies which lead to extreme delay percieved as bloat.
Hi Duke
I knew from the moment we met that you were a very bright man as you know I came back to your room 3 times at the THE SHOW where we met. You know I loved your speaker
So to answer a few questions I can say that the geography just isn't there in my room to add a 3rd sub let alone a 4th. I have described that here. I did say that seller subs would likely have been smarter but honestly my room sounded great with them in the room but powered off sounded even better when the subs were removed from the room.
Duke I agree with everything you say and my bias was such that the subs were mandatory and there were perhaps 6-8 songs that I played repeatedly day after day after day each time measuring and making minor changes in the settings as well as the sub position.Then the subs were behind my speakers rather than in the same plane and adjusting for time alignment and phase was difficult as minor changes in the settings made huge sonic changes. I did think the JL Crossover and my best thermometer for that was marty as I conversed with him frequently as to what he was hearing. No doubt the external crossover was easier to use but that was not another hole I wanted to go down,. Every time marty visited we had several days to play with the subs and each time we again made changes albeit minor. As I said when we got to a point where we felt we liked the sound the master volume was virtually off.
Finally in my last room which was bigger I had a pair of JL Audio Gotham subs which took every bit as long to dial but the end result was far more rewarding.
So in summary in my little room where I close the door turn off the lights and play music, it becomes for me my escape and finally I am at a point where I can smile about all of this for the simple reason is "I believe you guys" but once again my room was measured many times including people who were visiting so not sure if anyone here has measurements when they visited
Mike was here earlier this week and I have been to his barn twice now and have known Mike for at least 15 years and have followed his odyssey daily through most of his system iterations.Mike for me is a barometer of the hobby and I have heard his system and it kicks butt especially when you're in his listening chair so when he described what he heard 3 years ago and what he heard now, his description in my opinion is dead on. I specifically played him one song that I think caught his attention after which he commented how good the bass was along with the rest of the system
Duke, I hear you and I've heard your speaker. I'm a believer but next time you're in soCal you must let me take you for dinner and then have you come back to y house for a listen as I always love listening and learning to the advice that is given me
I knew from the moment we met that you were a very bright man as you know I came back to your room 3 times at the THE SHOW where we met. You know I loved your speaker
So to answer a few questions I can say that the geography just isn't there in my room to add a 3rd sub let alone a 4th. I have described that here. I did say that seller subs would likely have been smarter but honestly my room sounded great with them in the room but powered off sounded even better when the subs were removed from the room.
Duke I agree with everything you say and my bias was such that the subs were mandatory and there were perhaps 6-8 songs that I played repeatedly day after day after day each time measuring and making minor changes in the settings as well as the sub position.Then the subs were behind my speakers rather than in the same plane and adjusting for time alignment and phase was difficult as minor changes in the settings made huge sonic changes. I did think the JL Crossover and my best thermometer for that was marty as I conversed with him frequently as to what he was hearing. No doubt the external crossover was easier to use but that was not another hole I wanted to go down,. Every time marty visited we had several days to play with the subs and each time we again made changes albeit minor. As I said when we got to a point where we felt we liked the sound the master volume was virtually off.
Finally in my last room which was bigger I had a pair of JL Audio Gotham subs which took every bit as long to dial but the end result was far more rewarding.
So in summary in my little room where I close the door turn off the lights and play music, it becomes for me my escape and finally I am at a point where I can smile about all of this for the simple reason is "I believe you guys" but once again my room was measured many times including people who were visiting so not sure if anyone here has measurements when they visited
Mike was here earlier this week and I have been to his barn twice now and have known Mike for at least 15 years and have followed his odyssey daily through most of his system iterations.Mike for me is a barometer of the hobby and I have heard his system and it kicks butt especially when you're in his listening chair so when he described what he heard 3 years ago and what he heard now, his description in my opinion is dead on. I specifically played him one song that I think caught his attention after which he commented how good the bass was along with the rest of the system
Duke, I hear you and I've heard your speaker. I'm a believer but next time you're in soCal you must let me take you for dinner and then have you come back to y house for a listen as I always love listening and learning to the advice that is given me
Steve, if I can ask - is there a reason why you had the subs behind the speakers? IME in most modest sized room subs near the front wall corners rarely gel well with mains and in general subs along the side walls usually integrate better. Not a set - in - stone statement, but in general this seems mostly accurate in 2 channel rooms with speakers along a smaller width room (small width compared to a longer depth).
Hi Steve,
Thank you very much for your kind words, especially about my little speakers. They said to tell you that they love you too.
And... I accept your invitation! Not sure of when, but I have family in southern California, so one of these days...
I wasn't trying to talk you into more subs, as it sounds to me like your room acoustics are so advanced that the primary reason for "more subs" (modal smoothing) simply does not apply. The rear-firing tweeter idea was just me trying to figure out a way for you to harvest the low-end extension of your f113's without any degradation of what you already have going on. A "window of opportunity" may lie in the inevitable beaming of your 1" dome tweeters in their top octave... the missing off-axis energy up there could theoretically be filled in by a rear-firing tweeter, and I THINK there would be no downside if done right.
Let me know if you're curious and I'll put together a couple of little tweeter-boxes... don't worry, this is me with my hobbyist hat on, not me with my commercial hat on.
Edit: JackD201 pointed out to me that the Alexandria X2 already has a rear-firing tweeter. So... nevermind!!
Thank you very much for your kind words, especially about my little speakers. They said to tell you that they love you too.
And... I accept your invitation! Not sure of when, but I have family in southern California, so one of these days...
I wasn't trying to talk you into more subs, as it sounds to me like your room acoustics are so advanced that the primary reason for "more subs" (modal smoothing) simply does not apply. The rear-firing tweeter idea was just me trying to figure out a way for you to harvest the low-end extension of your f113's without any degradation of what you already have going on. A "window of opportunity" may lie in the inevitable beaming of your 1" dome tweeters in their top octave... the missing off-axis energy up there could theoretically be filled in by a rear-firing tweeter, and I THINK there would be no downside if done right.
Let me know if you're curious and I'll put together a couple of little tweeter-boxes... don't worry, this is me with my hobbyist hat on, not me with my commercial hat on.
Edit: JackD201 pointed out to me that the Alexandria X2 already has a rear-firing tweeter. So... nevermind!!
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The "experiment" that convinced me was playing JL using the high pass and then immediately comparing it to the direct, non JL connection. It is mostly a matter of clarity and naturalness. There were no offensive features per se. I recall Valin saying it was the best crossover he has heard, but for me, it's still a crossover I can hear as it does impart its circuitry on the output. The key is whether the problems it solves outweighs the fact that it pays a small (very small) sonic price. There's no free ride here. It's an excellent unit but the choice of whether to use one is yours to make.
Don't X2s already have rear firing tweeters? I could have sworn they have 29xx ring radiator tweets on there ....or was it the X1?
Hahahhaha you have more weird audiophile friends than I do then. My friends might have maybe 1 out of 7 LOL
I can see how your are trying to mock my self admitted 'lack of discrimination'. However, what does it mean when somebody says they toiled for months or years to get their bass 'right'?
Does that mean they were in bass hell torment at every listening session until then?
As with most things audio, there will be no particular goal or magic solution in bass that will suit all individuals, situations, rooms, mood or music.
I was never mocking you Carl. If anything, I am more like you than you might think. For some people, sound ca simply be right or at least right enough. I am one of those. Like most people there is a time for scrutiny and times to just enjoy. Lucky those that can flip the switch at will. There was a time in school that I was so immersed in the minutae of sound that I couldn't even fully enjoy a movie because I was picking apart every thing I heard. I'm well past that now. These days my attitude is , it is what it is until of course it beecomes my responsibility to do someethig about it. So no, I am ot marching into someone's home judging using my preferences as the yardstick. I will however judge a system based on how its owner is enjoying himself. It's his patch of heaven not mine.
In an earlier thread I gave a suggestion to cut that time based on experience as well as formal learning, how did that go? I do think there is a solution for the individual and there will always be a range acceptable if not perfect for others. At the point where quality or lack thereof becomes truly unbearable, most of the time it is no longer a matter of taste but actual biological reaction. Thats got to be REALLY bad.
If anything my horsing around is just my way of saying "Lighten the F up" and no that was not directed at you. Just the casual lurker who might be reading this thread in some state of despair. Everything is workable but not if they keep their panties in a bunch.
In an earlier thread I gave a suggestion to cut that time based on experience as well as formal learning, how did that go? I do think there is a solution for the individual and there will always be a range acceptable if not perfect for others. At the point where quality or lack thereof becomes truly unbearable, most of the time it is no longer a matter of taste but actual biological reaction. Thats got to be REALLY bad.
If anything my horsing around is just my way of saying "Lighten the F up" and no that was not directed at you. Just the casual lurker who might be reading this thread in some state of despair. Everything is workable but not if they keep their panties in a bunch.
They are super tweeters at the top of each speaker that are designed for that purpose. So yes you are correct
as most of you know i have set my sites on what I call my "end game" in which I round out my system to bring me current with the digital age. I have been very happy with the analog side of my system and even though I have been using a 12 year old Playback Designs as my DAC, the search for a present day DAC to carry me into the sunset has been going on for the past 12-18 months. I have found a plethora of information here on WBF thanks to all of the members who've shared their experiences. The choice of my server has been discussed here but suffice it to say I purchased a Taiko Extreme with 16 TB of internal storage. In order to make room for the Extreme I had to rearrange components on my CMS rack with everything determined by my existing cable lengths
This took place with the arrival the Extreme and took several hours of work.Pictures of my system front end at that time are shown below
This took place with the arrival the Extreme and took several hours of work.Pictures of my system front end at that time are shown below
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