Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

[mauidan]

Steve,

Do you remember what music you played when Davey heard your system?

As per this chart, there's isn't a lot of energy in the higher frequency.

 

[Steve williams]

Hi Dan

I am quite familiar with that chart

We played music in the complete audio spectrum

 

[mauidan]

I prefer the metal dome tweeter in the X2's as compared to the XLF's. The sound much more natural to me. I am not saying that the X2's are better speakers because I do believe that the XLF handle the mid range better and the ability of swapping from front to rear porting makes them easier to dial into any room.

Their are very few people who have been fortunate to compare the X2's and XLF's side by side. Most dealers will not stock both and many of us could not fit both into our listening rooms.

In my mind MBL has the best sounding high end of any speaker.

Fig.5 MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II, spatially averaged, 1/6-octave response in MF's listening room as set up by MF (blue) and by MBL's Jeremy Bryan (red), and of Wilson Audio MAXX 3 (green).

Davey's Speakers:


Fig.12 Sonus Faber Guarneri, room-averaged 1/3-octaveresponse (top, solid, 5dB/vertical div.), electrical impedance magnitude(bottom, dashed, 2 ohms/vertical div.). Minimum value is 5.8 ohms at 260Hz.

 

[still-one]

View attachment 10555
Fig.5 MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II, spatially averaged, 1/6-octave response in MF's listening room as set up by MF (blue) and by MBL's Jeremy Bryan (red), and of Wilson Audio MAXX 3 (green).

Davey's Speakers:

View attachment 10556
Fig.12 Sonus Faber Guarneri, room-averaged 1/3-octaveresponse (top, solid, 5dB/vertical div.), electrical impedance magnitude(bottom, dashed, 2 ohms/vertical div.). Minimum value is 5.8 ohms at 260Hz.

And your point is?

I noted that in my opinion MBL's have the best sounding high end. How they measure is of little concern in this crazy hobby of ours.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Every speaker has possible flaws , whether audible or not ,why not focus on the good things
The tweeter on the x 2 didnt bother me , i listened for half an hour at a shop and i think its a great design and sounded great
a speaker that for example davey has is far less complex then a X 2 to design and build off course , more parts so more that needs to be in synergy.
they are not comparable .
The tweeter om the SF will sound a bit different , again i think also its a matter of taste, one still might think the focal sounds best (which is used with a supertw anyway on the X2 ) another the silk dome , when the mist clears(hype goes ) in a couple of years it will become more clear what people really like .

just my 2 cents

 

[mauidan]

And your point is?

I noted that in my opinion MBL's have the best sounding high end. How they measure is of little concern in this crazy hobby of ours.

I wasn't trying to make any point.

Just presenting some data, to go along with the comments made by you and Davey.

 

[rbbert]

If I'm looking at the measurements for Davey's speakers correctly, it looks like his tweeter response nosedives a little beyond 10kHz. Is that because the tweeter was designed that way or does it have a tendency to ring so it was rolled off before it could get itself into trouble?

Interestingly, its response looks a lot more like the MBL than the Wilson

 

[DaveyF]

They would certainly be missing out because Maggie's are some of the best sounding speakers made.

My first pair of high end speakers were Maggies. I was lucky enough to use my ears then, as the salesperson was trying to sell me a pair of Cerwin Vega's ( no doubt due to a MUCH larger
profit). He showed me a graph showing how well the CV measured! The Maggies were my doorway to music. I'm sure he sold ten times the number of CV's to Maggie's.

 

[rbbert]

Absolutely Bruce!. But i know for a fact they will not send samples to Stereophile because of the measurements.

I'm pretty sure that's not a secret, JA has written about it more than once (or else once and then quoted many times).

 

[FrantzM]

Nope, and never said I did. I'm just commenting on what the FR graphs show which is a tweeter that rolls off above 4kHz. Based on the measurements, I would expect these speakers to sound very warm due to the rolled off highs. Pair them with a tube amp like the D-70 MKII, and one should be able to wallow in the midrange warmth. No wonder Davey is very susceptible to hearing the Focal tweeters ringing. His own speakers are very rolled off in the highs and anything that has extension beyond what he is currently hearing with his setup will stand out like a sore thumb to him.

What I consider unfair is judging someone's system without hearing it. He did not just comment on the speakers, which would have been fine, but on the entire system.

Can you invalidate his assumptions? They are no off-base IMHO.

I did hear Steve systems in numerous occasions and with different amplifiers ( ARC 600, 18-watts/ch Lamm and current top of the line LAMM) I never heard ringing. I have heard the X-2 with Spectral gear and didn't hear the ringing. Such ringing was by the way to my ears apparent with the WP7 , 6 and 5, I don't know what tweeter they use. I haven't heard the XLF yet

 

[Andre Marc]

Can you invalidate his assumptions? They are no off-base IMHO.

I did hear Steve systems in numerous occasions and with different amplifiers ( ARC 600, 18-watts/ch Lamm and current top of the line LAMM) I never heard ringing. I have heard the X-2 with Spectral gear and didn't hear the ringing. Such ringing was by the way to my ears apparent with the WP7 , 6 and 5, I don't know what tweeter they use. I haven't heard the XLF yet

It is not my job to invalidate it. Your reasoning puzzles me. So that means I can make any statement I want..digital is "better" than analog"..and it is up to OTHERS to invalidate? It is not the obligation of the person who made the original statement. Cmon, you know better.

BTW, I heard Steve's current LAMM/PBD/X-2 system for over 4 hours, and I too was not bothered by any ringing.

I also have heard the XLF on two occasions for 3 hour listening sessions with ARC 250s.

 

[Steve williams]

I was tweaking the laser lights in my room yesterday and caught some R2R bling.....

 

[rbbert]

Excellent thought about the subs as I tend to agree. The way they are set and crossed over results in only subtle changes but sufficient for some visceral impact

Have you tried positioning the subs as per Amir's topic a while back, i.e. mid-front and mid-back walls or mid-side walls facing into the room?

 

[Steve williams]

Have you tried positioning the subs as per Amir's topic a while back, i.e. mid-front and mid-back walls or mid-side walls facing into the room?

I haven't only due to space constraints.

 

[Steve williams]

I know that tubes here at WBF over the past few days have taken on some notoriety but because I am a tube person I thought that I would share another pair of tubes I found in the past week. As many of you know I have the so called Holy Grail of 12AX7's the so called ECC 803S which have been in my system for the past 4-5 years. I have been looking for an NOS second pair of these tubes but I must say they are few and far between now and those that are available are often times knock offs and others although genuine have very little tube life left and/or are far from a matched pair

Well I found the next best thing although many tube lovers claim that this tube is every bit as good as the ECC803S and perhaps even better for the following reasons.....

These tubes very rarely can be found with such a high mA in this pair we have 1.3mA/1.2mA on tube 1 and 1.2mA/1.1mA on tube 2. (1.2mA +/- 5% is the factory 100% measurements for NOS)

In addition the 100% mA/V (GM) is rare too @ 1,600/1,700 & 1,600/1,600.

Most of the time, with the "bargains" out there, we see half the mA, usually 0.6mA to 0.8mA per tube. And wide swings in the GM, like 1,200/1,700 or even 900/1,400 GM! These are the type of tubes you really don't want!

The perfect Factory Data Sheet Spec is 1.2mA/1.2mA +/- 5% for 100% measurements for NOS, with 1,600/1,600 + 1,600/1,600 +/- 5% for 100% NOS. These ECC83 Smooth-Plates fit the NOS spec perfectly!


Also from the vendor......

The Telefunken ECC803S tubes are very difficult to find in NOS condition and the prices have 'gone through the roof' over the last year or two, to the tune of $1,000.00 or more per tube!

I will see what we can do, if you are really interested. In my opinion they are not worth this price.

Have you tried or considered the Telefunken ECC83 smooth plate tube? It can be very close in sound and actually has a wider less compressed sound stage than the ECC803S.

The ECC803S was designed as an upgrade tube for Broadcast-stations in Germany, where a compressed signal was advantageous to the small car or home radios.

I have owned quite a few pair of the ECC803S myself, and decided to part with them in favor of the ECC83 smooth-plate because the wider sound stage appeals to me more, and the difference in price.

We have in stock a perfect matched pair 1,600/1,600 & 1,600/1,600 Telefunken smooth plates see:

















These tubes are not only perfectly matched with the same S/N but also have never been used

These will be rolled into my ML3 amplifier later today

 

[microstrip]

(...) These tubes are not only perfectly matched with the same S/N but also have never been used

These will be rolled into my ML3 amplifier later today

Steve,
Next time you should request non-tested sealed tubes. Can you imagine the feeling of disturbing all these electrons that have been resting for decades in the cathodes?

 

[FrantzM]

I was tweaking the laser lights in my room yesterday and caught some R2R bling.....

View attachment 10577

I like this shot!

 

[Steve williams]

Steve,
Next time you should request non-tested sealed tubes. Can you imagine the feeling of disturbing all these electrons that have been resting for decades in the cathodes?

I got lucky again with these tubes.

 

[jazdoc]

Steve,

Those are beauts! Enjoy

But you know...real men use Directly Heated Triodes

 

[Steve williams]

That's correct

My ML3 Signature uses GM-70's which are DHT's