Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve williams
- Start date
Pointing the speakers forward is problematic with the right channel and all the equipment on that side
Steve loves these teases.......so why not play along?
by process of elimination seating position is what is left. and having been there it can't really go back. moving it forward in essence straightens out the speakers relatively and reduces the room and ceiling effects to a degree. it might also allow for seating behind.
it's what i would do given the choices. not sure what the result would be in Steve's room; i know i prefer the near-field in my room for musical immersion.
and i'm not claiming or even inferring anything about his seating position needs to change (i heard nothing during my visit last December to feel that should be tried). only that if there is a change suggested by David it's my guess.
it just a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess).
is there a prize for the correct guess.
by process of elimination seating position is what is left. and having been there it can't really go back. moving it forward in essence straightens out the speakers relatively and reduces the room and ceiling effects to a degree. it might also allow for seating behind.
it's what i would do given the choices. not sure what the result would be in Steve's room; i know i prefer the near-field in my room for musical immersion.
and i'm not claiming or even inferring anything about his seating position needs to change (i heard nothing during my visit last December to feel that should be tried). only that if there is a change suggested by David it's my guess.
it just a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess).
is there a prize for the correct guess.
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So here we are some 2 weeks down the road on this little experiment.I love doing experiments in my system when it doesn't cost money. For me, I have arrived pretty much at my end game so anything that I have been doing lately has been IMO toning my system in an attempt to overcome some of what I felt to be some deficiencies in my system. In building my room from the scratch I was limited by the amount of space I could build because if you have followed this thread from the start you know that my sound room was built on top my existing living room which had a 20 foot ceiling.
My priorities in building the room was that I be able to use my existing speakers and existing electronics. With the help of an acoustician this was carried out and implemented as best as possible. My biggest fear was that my speakers would blow the back end of the room off and I didn't want to have to change speakers because if I did, I would as a result have to change electronics and if so I wouldn't have built the room. The biggest sonic attribute IMO which truly tamed all of the room issues was the use of wall drapes lined with an OEM product designed by my acoustician.
As to the room set up I truly had no idea of how best to start other than using the recommendations Wilson manuals have which espouse the "hand clap" technique through the room. Having done this, it suggested to my ears that the speakers would have to be set up some further forward in the room, and/or the seating position would have to be closer to the back wall. The use of the acoustically lined drapes solved these issues but as is always the case, it is rare to never find issue with room set up. Suffice it to say the room was slightly over damped. It took me the next 5 years to listen to people and part my drapes 1/3 of the way from the front wall. This helped immensely.
Recently as you know I had the privilege of having my friend ddk spend a day with me and helped not only to transfer my ZYX Premium and van den Hull MSS carts from one arm to the other.I personally did not want to trust myself with the MSS for several reasons, the biggest of which IMO there aren't many who cn set up a cartridge as good as David. Also was the fact that David was keenly aware of the issue of sibilance that many who have the cartridge, spoke about and stressed that this becomes a non issue with proper SRA setup and this always evokes David using his card trick set up.
So where is all of this leading, I am sure you are asking......
David was done with his work in the afternoon. we did some short listening , left the equipment on and went for dinner
Once we returned we sat down to a few hours of serious listening. I always knew that David was of the opinion that my room was over damped to his liking. We during our listening session, David as he always does moves from spot to spot in the room, listens and then moves to another spot . At the end of an album David was sit-in almost 4 feet in front of me and made what I considered a profound statement. He said, "where I am sitting now, takes your room completely out of the equation as the is the spot where it sounds the very best if you do nothing more than one the sitting position forward". He also said that doing this might necessitate moving the speakers 4-6" forward and the speakers in about 1/2". My first reaction was, "are you serious?"
so most of you have taken your guesses and most of you are dead on.
Sorry Mike, no prizes but as I said in my teaser post you were somewhat influential in my decision to do such. No this is not near field listening which I gather by definition you must be within 2 meters of the monitors. It is just closer listening
Never had I truly considered this only because of what I feared could happen to my hearing as I listen at realistic levels
I measured where David was sitting and he was just under 8 feet from the speakers. That worried not only for the above mentioned issue of also harming my hearing but also the closest algorithm in the Wilson set up manual was a listening position of 8"
As an aside, Wilson also recommends a ratio between 1.0-1.25/1 taking the distance from tweeter to ear divided by the distance from tweeter to tweeter. Where I was sitting now was at 11.5 feet with tweeter distance of 114 inches so my ratio was 138/114 =1.21
So what helped me in the decision to move my sitting position
1. As I stated a visit to Mike Lavigne's house convinced me that close up listening with 4 towers doesn't blow your ears off but puts you in a different zone completely
2. i always learn from other listeners when they visit me. To wit I took great interest when Damon Von Schweikert and Leif Swanso visited me they both found the best listening to be sitting on the edge of my chair and leaning way forward
3. I also remember when Gary Koh was present he commented that he never designs his speakers that only one person can get full enjoyment at any one time
4. When Nick Doshi set up his tape preamp at my house he suggested that I move my speakers in by 1" and open the toe in by all of 1/4" change. Using a laser light that 1/4 change made a difference of 8" at each ear. This tended to soft the focus and since that day I have not moved my speakers
5.The icing on the cake for me was a visit about 2 years ago to Alma Music with my friend "mobiusman" to visit Alex and Fabio. Alex took us into the large listening room where he had a pair of Alexias to hear. As soon as I sat down I knew we were way below the desired Wilson ratio. IIRC asking Alex, he said that the ratio was 0.88 and was determined entirely by listening and moving the speakers in 1/4" intervals. For my ears that was the BEST Wilson speaker I have ever heard at a dealer showroom
So the decision was easy
My first concern was how overbearing the large chair would be by moving it forward. I solved that problem by purchasing a new chair at Roche-Bobois in New York which is well built and has a firm back and a seat where my back is all the way back and my feet resting comfortably on the floor. Made of beautiful leather and I was hoping to have it by the time of this post but I'm told it arrives this Tuesday
I do have a picture of it on the show room floor but the picture doesn't' do it justice. I have to again thank my friend ddk helping me find this chair. The back is well below ear level and there is no concern that the seat with time will sag
My priorities in building the room was that I be able to use my existing speakers and existing electronics. With the help of an acoustician this was carried out and implemented as best as possible. My biggest fear was that my speakers would blow the back end of the room off and I didn't want to have to change speakers because if I did, I would as a result have to change electronics and if so I wouldn't have built the room. The biggest sonic attribute IMO which truly tamed all of the room issues was the use of wall drapes lined with an OEM product designed by my acoustician.
As to the room set up I truly had no idea of how best to start other than using the recommendations Wilson manuals have which espouse the "hand clap" technique through the room. Having done this, it suggested to my ears that the speakers would have to be set up some further forward in the room, and/or the seating position would have to be closer to the back wall. The use of the acoustically lined drapes solved these issues but as is always the case, it is rare to never find issue with room set up. Suffice it to say the room was slightly over damped. It took me the next 5 years to listen to people and part my drapes 1/3 of the way from the front wall. This helped immensely.
Recently as you know I had the privilege of having my friend ddk spend a day with me and helped not only to transfer my ZYX Premium and van den Hull MSS carts from one arm to the other.I personally did not want to trust myself with the MSS for several reasons, the biggest of which IMO there aren't many who cn set up a cartridge as good as David. Also was the fact that David was keenly aware of the issue of sibilance that many who have the cartridge, spoke about and stressed that this becomes a non issue with proper SRA setup and this always evokes David using his card trick set up.
So where is all of this leading, I am sure you are asking......
David was done with his work in the afternoon. we did some short listening , left the equipment on and went for dinner
Once we returned we sat down to a few hours of serious listening. I always knew that David was of the opinion that my room was over damped to his liking. We during our listening session, David as he always does moves from spot to spot in the room, listens and then moves to another spot . At the end of an album David was sit-in almost 4 feet in front of me and made what I considered a profound statement. He said, "where I am sitting now, takes your room completely out of the equation as the is the spot where it sounds the very best if you do nothing more than one the sitting position forward". He also said that doing this might necessitate moving the speakers 4-6" forward and the speakers in about 1/2". My first reaction was, "are you serious?"
so most of you have taken your guesses and most of you are dead on.
Sorry Mike, no prizes but as I said in my teaser post you were somewhat influential in my decision to do such. No this is not near field listening which I gather by definition you must be within 2 meters of the monitors. It is just closer listening
Never had I truly considered this only because of what I feared could happen to my hearing as I listen at realistic levels
I measured where David was sitting and he was just under 8 feet from the speakers. That worried not only for the above mentioned issue of also harming my hearing but also the closest algorithm in the Wilson set up manual was a listening position of 8"
As an aside, Wilson also recommends a ratio between 1.0-1.25/1 taking the distance from tweeter to ear divided by the distance from tweeter to tweeter. Where I was sitting now was at 11.5 feet with tweeter distance of 114 inches so my ratio was 138/114 =1.21
So what helped me in the decision to move my sitting position
1. As I stated a visit to Mike Lavigne's house convinced me that close up listening with 4 towers doesn't blow your ears off but puts you in a different zone completely
2. i always learn from other listeners when they visit me. To wit I took great interest when Damon Von Schweikert and Leif Swanso visited me they both found the best listening to be sitting on the edge of my chair and leaning way forward
3. I also remember when Gary Koh was present he commented that he never designs his speakers that only one person can get full enjoyment at any one time
4. When Nick Doshi set up his tape preamp at my house he suggested that I move my speakers in by 1" and open the toe in by all of 1/4" change. Using a laser light that 1/4 change made a difference of 8" at each ear. This tended to soft the focus and since that day I have not moved my speakers
5.The icing on the cake for me was a visit about 2 years ago to Alma Music with my friend "mobiusman" to visit Alex and Fabio. Alex took us into the large listening room where he had a pair of Alexias to hear. As soon as I sat down I knew we were way below the desired Wilson ratio. IIRC asking Alex, he said that the ratio was 0.88 and was determined entirely by listening and moving the speakers in 1/4" intervals. For my ears that was the BEST Wilson speaker I have ever heard at a dealer showroom
So the decision was easy
My first concern was how overbearing the large chair would be by moving it forward. I solved that problem by purchasing a new chair at Roche-Bobois in New York which is well built and has a firm back and a seat where my back is all the way back and my feet resting comfortably on the floor. Made of beautiful leather and I was hoping to have it by the time of this post but I'm told it arrives this Tuesday
I do have a picture of it on the show room floor but the picture doesn't' do it justice. I have to again thank my friend ddk helping me find this chair. The back is well below ear level and there is no concern that the seat with time will sag
so what have I done in the interim
I initially moved the seat to the spot David indicated and TBH I was stunned by the sound. I was in a different zone. The music was so much more dynamic. I was totally immersed
The downside was that if I moved my head out of the sweet spot from side to side the music would shift to the side. This was because I had not adjusted the upper modules on my speakers
So the next day I opened the Wilson set up manual and went through the algorithms for each upper module. I found the with my listening height of 40" I would not have to change any of the spikes or tether bolts. All I had to do was change the detente position of each module. This to me ws very easy as I have done it many times over the years. I did measurements and found the exact detente position for a listening position between 8-9 feet. This would bring me to a position 4-6" behind where david had indicated but talking to him about it he said I should do it. Took me all of an hour
What was left short of listening??? Well the other reality was that in the new sitting position I could now see the entire inner wal of each speaker. Proper set up dictates that you should only just see the inner wall of each speaker.
I remembered the setup at Alma Music as well as the recommendationsNick Doshi gave to me so for the moment I made no change in the toe in. I did listen and now I was simply stunned. Imaging was exactly to my preference even though a toe in change was indicated. The mouths of the singers and the size of instruments and singers were dead on. What I heard now however was so dynamic that I was stunned. No blurring or loss of image. Everything was where it should be
The change in seat position went from almost 12' from the speaker to now between 8-9' depending on where I sit in the chair
I have some photos to show that the chair has been moved forward almost 3 feet putting me only 4" behind where david pointed to all with very little work or effort
Simply put I was not prepared for what I heard and for me this has become a permanent listening spot
I look at the pin point imaging Wilson dictates as a starting point. I call that "sharpness or focus" Where I a now the the existing toe in unchanged I find the sharpness is gone and things are somewhat smoother (if that takes sense). I am surprised that for now I have zero temptation to play with the toe in
With the new chair arriving on Tuesday, I have removed the Zoethecus stand that I used beside the chair. My only concern is where my ear height will be with the new chair because that might involve changing the detente positions of the upper modules as well as changing the spikes and tether bolts
I initially moved the seat to the spot David indicated and TBH I was stunned by the sound. I was in a different zone. The music was so much more dynamic. I was totally immersed
The downside was that if I moved my head out of the sweet spot from side to side the music would shift to the side. This was because I had not adjusted the upper modules on my speakers
So the next day I opened the Wilson set up manual and went through the algorithms for each upper module. I found the with my listening height of 40" I would not have to change any of the spikes or tether bolts. All I had to do was change the detente position of each module. This to me ws very easy as I have done it many times over the years. I did measurements and found the exact detente position for a listening position between 8-9 feet. This would bring me to a position 4-6" behind where david had indicated but talking to him about it he said I should do it. Took me all of an hour
What was left short of listening??? Well the other reality was that in the new sitting position I could now see the entire inner wal of each speaker. Proper set up dictates that you should only just see the inner wall of each speaker.
I remembered the setup at Alma Music as well as the recommendationsNick Doshi gave to me so for the moment I made no change in the toe in. I did listen and now I was simply stunned. Imaging was exactly to my preference even though a toe in change was indicated. The mouths of the singers and the size of instruments and singers were dead on. What I heard now however was so dynamic that I was stunned. No blurring or loss of image. Everything was where it should be
The change in seat position went from almost 12' from the speaker to now between 8-9' depending on where I sit in the chair
I have some photos to show that the chair has been moved forward almost 3 feet putting me only 4" behind where david pointed to all with very little work or effort
Simply put I was not prepared for what I heard and for me this has become a permanent listening spot
I look at the pin point imaging Wilson dictates as a starting point. I call that "sharpness or focus" Where I a now the the existing toe in unchanged I find the sharpness is gone and things are somewhat smoother (if that takes sense). I am surprised that for now I have zero temptation to play with the toe in
With the new chair arriving on Tuesday, I have removed the Zoethecus stand that I used beside the chair. My only concern is where my ear height will be with the new chair because that might involve changing the detente positions of the upper modules as well as changing the spikes and tether bolts
So a big shout to once again to David for the suggestion as well as helping me find the chair as well as all of the others who helped put the bee in my bonnet
And last thing...,.. my calculated ratio is below Wilson recommendations at 0.947. Thanks to asiufy for having proved to me that it’s ok to be below that desired ratio. Let your ears dictate the end result.
Steve,
1--heartbroken i don't get a prize. but i will get over it.
2--near-field is not within 2 meters (not sure where that concept came from), near-field is simply at or inside the equilateral triangle defined by the tweeters and the listening position. in my room my tweeters are 115" apart, my ears 107" from each tweeter.....i'm 8 inches inside near-field. if you look at my room pictures it appears my chair sits almost up to the speakers, but the size/height of my speaker towers and the large room make it optically deceptive. your tall massive speakers have a similar effect. if you had small two ways it would not look so extreme.
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_near_field.php
1--heartbroken i don't get a prize. but i will get over it.
2--near-field is not within 2 meters (not sure where that concept came from), near-field is simply at or inside the equilateral triangle defined by the tweeters and the listening position. in my room my tweeters are 115" apart, my ears 107" from each tweeter.....i'm 8 inches inside near-field. if you look at my room pictures it appears my chair sits almost up to the speakers, but the size/height of my speaker towers and the large room make it optically deceptive. your tall massive speakers have a similar effect. if you had small two ways it would not look so extreme.
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_near_field.php
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Congratulations Steve. It all looks awesome. I completely agree with “let your ears dictate the end result.” I don’t follow the Magico set up protocols either, regarding toe-in.
When you say you used a laser to determine the tweeter is 8 inches outside of each year, on what surface of the speaker did you position the laser pointer? Also where is your seat in terms of distance from the front wall and distance from the back wall?
Finally how would you say the sound has improved? In what specific area or is it more a general overall naturalness?
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Peter, the laser was shined off the inside wall of each speaker. We put blue tape on the back top of my chair on both sides of my ears and marked where the light was before and after a 1/4" toe out. It was 8" further away from my ear
As to those measurements from front and back wall I need to measure as frankly I don't know since I moved the chair. Plus it's very windy hot and dry here and there are helicopter flying just above me from the county fire department. There is a fire in the hills near the golf course behind me about 1/2 mile away so I'm gong to sign off until I know what's going on
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