Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

[steve williams]

FYIW, I did the same experiment. Preamp at 40 - SPL shows 72db. Unplug Typhon - still 72db. Play one minute of music with high dyanmic range. Highest peak in one minute is 77db. Unplug tyhpon, some result 77db.

have you tried with pink noise?

BTW to all you scientists feel free to buy whatever equipment you want. I'm a retired doc and a totally different science so for my need my good old Radio Shack SPL Meter serves me just fine. I'm reporting what I heard with another listener (who BTW IMO is the most critical listener I have ever known in this hobby and is not only a doc like me but so also the scientist I'm not) and he heard the difference as plain as day as me.

Now, you can argue all you want about the lack of science.....I agree

However two of us heard it and in both of our opinions it was a 4 Db difference. I also said that I have no explanation. I would be happy to have you come by for a listen and we can put our thinking caps on but in the meanwhile I was there and you weren't. It's easy to pontificate. We've all done that. I have no explanation nor does Marty. I'm only the messenger. I posted this because I anticipated it would generate a lot of discussion. It has. There are 2 other users here who have found what I have and edorr who heard no difference. Perhaps that is why he is selling his Typhon. Marty BTW also has a Triton but no Typhon and like everyone here was very skeptical as to my findings. He hasn't heard my system since my adding the Shunyata gear but he is quite familiar with a Triton in his system. As previously posted, after listening for a few hours, Marty then said, OK, you know I can't leave until I compare the system without the Typhons in the AC duplex of my amps and then the Typhon plugged into my Triton. It was both our perceptions that without the Typhons the preamp gain control had to be increased by 4 Db in order to restore what we were hearing when the Typhons were in the system

 

[rbbert]

I don't anyone is doubting your (and Marty's) listening impressions, it's just interesting to try to sort out if it is due to something easily measurable (volume difference) or something more complex and not so easily measurable (quieter background, better dynamics, etc).

 

[steve williams]

Rbbert

didn't mean to be testy but I anticipated a heated debate. Personally I have no answer. In fact let's assume measured SPL was identical at 72 Db. Why then with the Typhons out did i have to adjust my volume up by 4 db to emulate the same volume with the Typhons in the system?

I don't know. Makes no sense.

 

[Frank750]

Steve, the only thing that matters to me is my system sounds better with the Typhons in it. I also don't believe edorr has 3 Typhons in his system the way you and I do, though I have no idea what his system consists of. You really are in a no win position when you start discussing measurements with these guys.

 

[steve williams]

I really welcome every ones thoughts.

 

[edorr]

Steve, the only thing that matters to me is my system sounds better with the Typhons in it. I also don't believe edorr has 3 Typhons in his system the way you and I do, though I have no idea what his system consists of. You really are in a no win position when you start discussing measurements with these guys.

No one is trying to win any sort of contest here. I am not disputing Steve's or Marty's observations or measurements. I am just reporting my own measurements, and find no difference. I even seem to recall Steve asking for other Typhon owners observations. I have one python in parallel on a single circuit with 2 x 200 class A monoblocks.

 

[edorr]

have you tried with pink noise?

Yes, the 72db measurement was with pink noise.

There are 2 other users here who have found what I have and edorr who heard no difference. Perhaps that is why he is selling his Typhon.

I'm keeping the Typhon on my poweramps. I'm selling the 2nd one that was connected to the Triton for front end components. I think the $5K can be deployed more effectively in my system. If economics were no consideration, I would have proably kept it.

I'm only the messenger.

Same here. Just reporting a measurement

 

[microstrip]

Rbbert

didn't mean to be testy but I anticipated a heated debate. Personally I have no answer. In fact let's assume measured SPL was identical at 72 Db. Why then with the Typhons out did i have to adjust my volume up by 4 db to emulate the same volume with the Typhons in the system?

I don't know. Makes no sense.

Steve,

For me it can make sense. Cantate Domino is a recording very sensitive to sound level, particularly in a top system as yours. You want to listen to the single voices in the choir, to the spaciousness details, the beautiful intonations of the soloists and its dynamics, and also to to the power of the whole recording. IMHO is is a very challenging recording, although many people think that is just a spectacular one. For many years I told everyone that it sounded good only in the LP version, until one day I listened to it sounding superb in CD - this is not the proper thread for it now!

Gary Koh has once pretty well summarized the differences due to power cables in the bass and in scale - it would be great if he could contribute to this thread. Although I have no experience with the Typhon, I have experienced similar perceived difference in estimated loudness levels when changing signal cables. I often listen to Shostakovitch, and using the same speakers and room I will play it at different levels depending on the electronics I am using - and all my gear belongs to the "inaudible distortion should sound the same" camp at the levels I usually play.

Perhaps your 4dB is not accurate (it was a single session). Perhaps in the long term, once the "wow" effect due to lack of experience with the Typhon vanishes, you will reduce this variation to about half. But for me it is easy to accept that after experiencing a better sound quality we usually unconsciously try to compensate of the lower quality system by raising the sound level. Friends try do it in comparisons, I am usually the bad guy with voltmeter!

 

[garylkoh]

Gary Koh has once pretty well summarized the differences due to power cables in the bass and in scale - it would be great if he could contribute to this thread. Although I have no experience with the Typhon,

Francisco, thanks for the ping. I am following this thread, but have nothing useful to add. I have no experience with any of the Shunyata products. It's one of the products that I've never demo'ed with.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, thanks for the ping. I am following this thread, but have nothing useful to add. I have no experience with any of the Shunyata products. It's one of the products that I've never demo'ed with.

Gary,
Sorry if I was not clear - I was not asking you specifically about some particular brand of cables, but on your general comment on the effect of power cables in scale and bass, and maybe weather it could be perceived as change in loudness.

 

[rockitman]

here is something I have noticed with stillpoints on my x-2's. The music is denser and more extended between the speakers, hence the speakers disappear more. The music coming from the middle sounds louder to me. perhaps this is a similar to what you are hearing....if you are measuring spl at the center point between the speakers.

 

[rockitman]

here is something I have noticed with stillpoints on my x-2's. The music is denser and more extended between the speakers, hence the speakers disappear more. The music coming from the middle sounds louder to me. perhaps this is a similar to what you are hearing....if you are measuring spl at the center point between the speakers.

I'm with you steve w/regard to shunyata improvement. Just imagine stillpoints. I hear the added volume U are talking about.

 

[steve williams]

I'm with you steve w/regard to shunyata improvement. Just imagine stillpoints. I hear the added volume U are talking about.

That's interesting you say that as I sensed we are getting similar results by different means.

 

[rockitman]

That's interesting you say that as I sensed we are getting similar results by different means.

If you are interested in trying Ultra 5's, doing the speakers first yields the best bang for the buck. I went the other route..source first. Had I known that under the speakers would yield the most remarkable improvement, I would have done it in the other order. What I am saying, the biggest improvement with Ultra 5's is the speakers....source components after that ..ie Ultra SS

 

[steve williams]

Yesterday I began my proposed cable redo of my system which I anticipate will take me until the end of this year

I am starting to audition suitable power cords for my Lamm ML3 power amps. I received a pair of the newly released Shunyata Alpha High Current Power cords for starters. I must admit that right out of the box they sound so different than my Valhalla PC's however there are under 10 hours on these PC's so stay tuned

 

[steve williams]

what I find most interesting about the new Alpha HC PC is that it is built around Cobra technology but unlike the Cobra the new Alpha HC has 2x10 AWG Coincident Concentric Conductors which effectively makes the power cord a 7 AWG wire, which is therefore similar to the Anaconda which uses a single strand of 7 AWG. The cable diameter is 1.05" as compared to the diameter of the Anaconda which is 1.32" in diameter however the Alpha HC has NOISE REDUCTION TECHNOLOGY- Hybrid Dual ?tron High Current Filter which the Anaconda does not

 

[edorr]

what I find most interesting about the new Alpha HC PC is that it is built around Cobra technology but unlike the Cobra the new Alpha HC has 2x10 AWG Coincident Concentric Conductors which effectively makes the power cord a 7 AWG wire, which is therefore similar to the Anaconda which uses a single strand of 7 AWG. The cable diameter is 1.05" as compared to the diameter of the Anaconda which is 1.32" in diameter however the Alpha HC has NOISE REDUCTION TECHNOLOGY- Hybrid Dual ?tron High Current Filter which the Anaconda does not

Do you have an pair of anacondas on hand to compare how they performs against the new alpha HC cables?

 

[steve williams]

I do

 

[edorr]

I do

Eagerly awaiting your findings then. I have a pair of Anaconda's on my monoblocks, and always interested in saving a few bucks with no loss in performance - worked like a charm swapping out anaconda on DAC for Alpha Digital....

 

[marty]

So maybe instead of listening and measuring speaker output, maybe you should measure amplifier output via a voltage meter for better accuracy.

Bruce, this is indeed part of the additional studies that I'd love to see to solve the curious riddle of both the subjective and objective assessments that have been done to date. If I may summarize these succinctly:

1) Subjective: Both Steve and I found similar differences the preamp volume settings that yielded similar SPL levels with and without the Typhons in his system. We believe that a volume setting of 10 on his Lamm preamp with the Typhons in the system, provided a similar SPL to a volume setting of about 13 without the Typhons. This is with ordinary music and two listeners. It is an approximation but appears consistent.

2) Objective: When we ran a pink noise signal into the system, the difference in SPL between a "10" setting and a "13" setting was about 4dB. That is not surprising. However, when we simply left the volume control at 1 setting and connected and disconnected the Typhons, the difference in SPL was about 1db. (This seems to be confirmed by at least one other member. About the only thing you can say about an n=2 in both cases, is that it's probably better than an n=1, but let's not get get carried away about accuracy and reproducibility. Like the subjective findings with 2 listeners, all we can say is that the objective results were similar between 2 totally different systems).

Therefore, we have some nominal data that suggests something other than the simple addition of the Typhons accounts for a perceptual change of about 4dB which cannot be accounted for by a 1dB objective SPL change between the presence or absence of the Typhons. As you suggest, further studies are required. To begin, I'd like to see not only amplifier output measured, but gain and sensitivity as well. The same would be true for the pre-amp and for the combined system as a whole. These are not difficult studies to do but Steve does not have resources to do them. Other members might. Caelin surely does but apparently does not wish to comment at this time (perhaps due to ongoing lab studies of his own). Suffice it to say, it is a great mystery to me and I believe the answer is probably straight forward once the proper studies are performed. What I'm pretty certain of, and to which I think we would all agree, is that I doubt the addition of the Typhons causes the pre-amp or amplifier to more than slightly double its voltage output for the same voltage input (which would be required to get a 4dB increase in the system). That would sort of be the equivalent of discovering a perpetual motion machine which simply means don't bet the ranch on this option- the answer surely lies elsewhere. But as to what the hell exactly accounts for these curious observations, I presently have no idea! I'd love to see some solid voltage measurements to get more clarity.