Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve williams
- Start date
To me it's really simple... the faster the signal response, the higher the amplitude potential in the same amount of time - hence, higher dynamic headroom. What you are hearing is probably the result of this. For example, I heard the same with the MA-X digital cable, but only in conjunction with analog MITs in the chain to complement; in the past, I had evaluated this cable but without complementing cables in the chain, and wasn't hearing the benefit (clear weakest-link effect); now I do. I am quite certain you are hearing a lot more than the measured ~1dB in your test. I bet when you introduce high impulse-response signal cables, your reaction will be similar.
I agree with micro that a 1 db difference in this type of experiment probably equates to no difference (measurable, that is, not subjective). It's also interesting that when I feel the need to turn down the volume it usually indicates the music is more compressed. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but I also wouldn't be too quick to assume that ack's proposed explanation (i.e.better dynamics) is the right one either.
Edit: I should add that despite a lack of reasonable (IMO) explanations, my own experience with power cords suggests that they do make a significant difference, and I have no reason to doubt that other manipulations of the power incoming to an audio system also make audible differences.
Edit: I should add that despite a lack of reasonable (IMO) explanations, my own experience with power cords suggests that they do make a significant difference, and I have no reason to doubt that other manipulations of the power incoming to an audio system also make audible differences.
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So here is my dilemma and confusion with the 2 experiments I ran. I had a talk this morning with Marty regarding the results and here is our concern........
On the first day when Marty was here our experiment was different than what I did yesterday
We listened to Silent Night from Cantate Domino at preamp level 10 with the Typhons plugged in. Unplugging the Typhons resulted in a subjective decrease in SPL such that when we upped the volume on the preamps to match the first listening level we had the preamp at listening level 12-13 (2-3 positions higher on the gain control) which translates to a 4Db difference
Yet when I did a slightly different experiment yesterday by measuring the SPL at listening level 10 with the Typhons plugged in, I got 72 Db
Then when I unplugged the Typhons and remeasured the SPL at listening level 10 I got 71 Db
So here is the question that Marty and I cannot explain....
"how does an effective difference of only 1 Db objectively result in a subjective difference of 4 Db ? This is what eludes us in trying to explain why we had a subjective 4 Db change. Thoughts anyone
On the first day when Marty was here our experiment was different than what I did yesterday
We listened to Silent Night from Cantate Domino at preamp level 10 with the Typhons plugged in. Unplugging the Typhons resulted in a subjective decrease in SPL such that when we upped the volume on the preamps to match the first listening level we had the preamp at listening level 12-13 (2-3 positions higher on the gain control) which translates to a 4Db difference
Yet when I did a slightly different experiment yesterday by measuring the SPL at listening level 10 with the Typhons plugged in, I got 72 Db
Then when I unplugged the Typhons and remeasured the SPL at listening level 10 I got 71 Db
So here is the question that Marty and I cannot explain....
"how does an effective difference of only 1 Db objectively result in a subjective difference of 4 Db ? This is what eludes us in trying to explain why we had a subjective 4 Db change. Thoughts anyone
So here is my dilemma and confusion with the 2 experiments I ran. I had a talk this morning with Marty regarding the results and here is our concern........
On the first day when Marty was here our experiment was different than what I did yesterday
We listened to Silent Night from Cantate Domino at preamp level 10 with the Typhons plugged in. Unplugging the Typhons resulted in a subjective decrease in SPL such that when we upped the volume on the preamps to match the first listening level we had the preamp at listening level 12-13 (2-3 positions higher on the gain control) which translates to a 4Db difference
Yet when I did a slightly different experiment yesterday by measuring the SPL at listening level 10 with the Typhons plugged in, I got 72 Db
Then when I unplugged the Typhons and remeasured the SPL at listening level 10 I got 71 Db
So here is the question that Marty and I cannot explain....
"how does an effective difference of only 1 Db objectively result in a subjective difference of 4 Db ? This is what eludes us in trying to explain why we had a subjective 4 Db change. Thoughts anyone
The db measurements are of the total sound the system is producing...including system noise, distortion, etc. Your changing the volume was a reflection of your listening solely to the musical signal, words, etc. perhaps to get the same level of clarity of words, etc you needed to turn the volume up louder...or perhaps with the typhoon, the delta between noise and music signal was such that you could hear the same music at 4db lower absolute volume relative to without typhoon.
Steve, I believe that the human ear can only reliably pick up volume differences on the order of +- 6db. Assuming that you increased the volume by 4db ( probably closer to 6db) on the first test, you probably heard the slight decrease in volume and yet the preamp was compensating more than 4db ( the detents on your volume control most likely are NOT that accurate). If you had measured the actual volume increase on the 2nd test to allow you to hear the difference, that would have been instructive. Otherwise, I suspect the 1st test was inaccurate...based on it being by ear only.
I wish I could explain it Lloyd
IOW a 1 Db change with the Typhons plugged in resulted in a 4 Db subjective difference in SPL.What's going on that gives us that perception
So here is my dilemma and confusion with the 2 experiments I ran. I had a talk this morning with Marty regarding the results and here is our concern........
On the first day when Marty was here our experiment was different than what I did yesterday
We listened to Silent Night from Cantate Domino at preamp level 10 with the Typhons plugged in. Unplugging the Typhons resulted in a subjective decrease in SPL such that when we upped the volume on the preamps to match the first listening level we had the preamp at listening level 12-13 (2-3 positions higher on the gain control) which translates to a 4Db difference
Yet when I did a slightly different experiment yesterday by measuring the SPL at listening level 10 with the Typhons plugged in, I got 72 Db
Then when I unplugged the Typhons and remeasured the SPL at listening level 10 I got 71 Db
So here is the question that Marty and I cannot explain....
"how does an effective difference of only 1 Db objectively result in a subjective difference of 4 Db ? This is what eludes us in trying to explain why we had a subjective 4 Db change. Thoughts anyone
Steve,
As you know I have doubts about the accuracy of you SPL measurements, and will not comment on the 1 dB difference, but I can easily accept that your subjective perception of sound level depends on the quality of the sound reproduction and your enjoyment of the system. If the Typhon reduces the subjective noise of the system - the famous black background - and you feel a larger dynamic range. Perhaps in order to restore it you need a louder level when you play without the Typhon. Just digressing about matters I know little about ...
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
So maybe instead of listening and measuring speaker output, maybe you should measure amplifier output via a voltage meter for better accuracy.
yeah...1 db diff when I pulled the plug to...go figure. All I can say definitively is if your playing music and pull the plug it's like tossing a blanket over the speakers...just looses all the energy around the notes...
well the long and the short of it is that the Typhons do something that gives the perception of increased SPL for reasons I cannot explain
Remember, there's a difference between measurements and what the human ear can reliably perceive. Which is why I do NOT rely solely on measurements to determine sonic differences. YMMV.
Surely. I always use a -40dB 1 KHz track for this purpose. Do not do it with a 0 dB track - if you make a mistake with the volume it can damage your system and your hears! Although many cheap digital VOMs will not be accurate at 1kHz (they are expected to be operated only in the 50/60Hz zone) they are good enough for relative measurements.
If you need a flac of this 30s track I can send it by email.
1dB is significant, IMO. Measuring output voltage at the amp would tell the scientific story. Depending on what is happening like reduced noise floor via passive conditioning or vibration control/isolation, there can definitely be a perceived sense of increase volume using former power levels. That is a good thing.
My thoughts exactly. Using an iDevice or Radio Shack SPL meter to consistently detect a 1 dB difference in a listening room seems pretty unscientific.
FYIW, I did the same experiment. Preamp at 40 - SPL shows 72db. Unplug Typhon - still 72db. Play one minute of music with high dyanmic range. Highest peak in one minute is 77db. Unplug tyhpon, some result 77db.
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