I still have 8 of them under Typhons. I took the money from the rest of them and bought an HRS rack. I never thought I'd say it but the merry-go-round on some of this stuff is wearing me down.
Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve williams
- Start date
I still have 8 of them under Typhons. I took the money from the rest of them and bought an HRS rack. I never thought I'd say it but the merry-go-round on some of this stuff is wearing me down.
I use SS Ultras under all my components and U5's under my speakers . Having tried the 5's under components , much preferred the SS Ultras , so interesting to hear that the U6 works well under components . Any base component weight , over which the benefits are more apparent , say 20 kgs ?
Each one of the 4 boxes of my amplifier weigh 100 lbs if that helps. I have no intention of using 6's other than for my amp
Thank you so much, Lloyd. I have 3 Ultra 5's under each amp and an extra 2 Ultra 5's sitting around doing nothing - it never occurred to me to try 4 under each amp.
I have at times taken the Stillpoints out from under my amps, replaced them with Rollerblocks and tried the Ultra 5's under various components, but couldn't hear any differences (unlike the amps where I do hear a difference).
Stillpoint Ultra 5's Under Fathom Subs
Will this madness ever end?
Today i had another epiphany that almost rendered me incontinent when I heard it. After finding yesterday that having Ultra 6's under the power supplies of my amplifier, i now had opportunity to place the 6 Ultra 5's under my Fathom subs.It was as if the heavens had parted and I was hearing bass like I've not heard in my system since i've been using SET amps (30wpc in my Lamm amps). Several weeks ago when Marty visited he commented that since he had listened last I had given up some in the 60-80 Hz range which he considers the leading wave and the part that you feel in these low frequencies. I have many demo disks from Marty but one in particular on bass. Listening to that now and compared to when we listened last there were several classical tracks that were as realistic as it gets. I have not heard such a bottom end presence since I owned ARC Ref 600 Mk lll mono amps.
There is no doubt to me that getting Stillpoints under my subs was as big an epiphany as when i placed Stillpoints under my Wilson X2's. IMO this confirms Bruce's post (oldaudiodude) here that the Ultra 5's are best under speakers and IMO THE heavier speaker the better.When I listened today to Marty's demo disk for base I heard (and felt) bottom end like I haven't in a long time.
So to all you guys who love 5's under your components, you haven't heard it all yet until you switch to 6's under your components and leave the 5's under your speakers but bevel up or bevel down is what sounds best
When will the madness end? It's a hot day here so I need to get another glass of Kool Aid
Are they screwed into your JL's or are the subs just resting on the Stillpoints? I'm guessing this is probably a silly question and the answer is the former but humor me....
Actually the latter Floyd. The only place I use adaptors is under my Wilson X2's. I would bet they would sound better if i used 4 Ultra 5's with adaptors and when I switch out the 6 U Ultra 5's under my amp I will have some extra to do just that
Just for fun: devil's advocate...what happens if you leave the Ultra 5s under your amp...and then add additional ultra 5s under your other components? I will offer another possibility to your observations, IF one believes the Ultra 5s are great at clarity, transparency...you MAY find that removing them from your amp means the other changes were less apparent. And by leaving Ultra 5s underneath, and THEN adding ultra 5s under those other components, you may then hear what differences the Ultra 5s are making.
Strangely, that is what Stillpoints recommends...power first, (incl conditioners), THEN components.
Lloyd, have you ever heard a pair of amps isolated on two Vibraplanes, or even Townshend Seismic Sinks? A Vibraplane costs about what 3 Ultra 5s cost and I found it to be more effective in my system. I have compared the two. I did notice a slight improvement with 3 Ultra 5s under each amp, but a much more dramatic one with the Vibraplanes. I am also lending two Seismic Sinks to a buddy for under his tube amps and he loves them and these can be found, with some difficulty, for about $350 used.
I think it would be interesting to learn if others have compared air isolation devices, or even something like a Minus-K, to the isolation/grounding? devices like Stillpoints under amps and other components.
would love to hear what they do...have not found much access to try. I bet they are amazing and intuitively what they are doing makes sense to me.
Peter, remember that almost ALL Seismic Sinks cannot support an amp ( too heavy). It takes a model designed for an amp, and these are more than rare on the used market....
I was actually using a Seismic Sink under my TT...and for any years, it was a nice improvement. However, I have now taken it away, as my updated LP12 uses the new Trampolin 2 base.The combo was actually
not that impressive....too much isolation??
BTW, anyone here using Combak Harmonix---I like these devices a lot and have them under all of my digital gear.
Vertical vibration is transferred to horizontal motion and the vibration energy is...
HEAT- very important question. The Stillpoints company explains: "Vertical vibration is transferred to horizontal motion and the vibration energy is converted to heat."
Has anyone put their fingers, thermocouple, infrared, or other heat sensing mechanism to investigate any increase in heat [1/10 degree to many degrees F or C].
Thank you in advance for any knowledgeable replies.
zz.
HEAT- very important question. The Stillpoints company explains: "Vertical vibration is transferred to horizontal motion and the vibration energy is converted to heat."
Has anyone put their fingers, thermocouple, infrared, or other heat sensing mechanism to investigate any increase in heat [1/10 degree to many degrees F or C].
Thank you in advance for any knowledgeable replies.
zz.
good to know...the Gryphon alone weighs 176lbs. add mass damping, and its closer to 225lbs. Sounds like active isolation would have to be Herzan or Minus K?
I don't think there is actually any horizontal motion of the speaker. Think of it as a heavy object rested on a four balls vibrating vertically . The vertical motion compress the balls and create movement of the ball in the horizontal plane. This movement dissipates the (vibration) energy.
I am in complete agreement with both zztop7 and Peter A. First, let's be very clear. We have heard for years about vibration energy converted to heat with a variety of audio gear suspension systems. Does anyone have a shred of data for this? I'm talking about real physical data, not hypothetical data or worse, audiophile marketing hype? Now, that doesn't mean I don't believe it isn't real. I'm just asking what data, if any exists, to validate this hypothesis? Secondly, I'm also in agreement with Peter. I don't understand why any speaker support system that allows horizontal motion would be considered advantageous. I understand the desire to isolate vibrations in the horizontal and vertical plane of certain components, i.e. turntables with a Vibraplane or its equivalent. This also seems entirely appropriate for gear that cannot move horizontally (i.e. DACs, preamp, amps). But when speakers are involved, with pistonic motion, I just don't get it. That is for both the theory, and the reality. I've heard a number of large heavy speakers that have Stillpoints under them but I'm just not convinced they sound better than if they were spiked. I'm looking forward to really testing this hypothesis one day soon.
These issues go to the core of scientific credibility for me. I love companies that can show me verifiable data that supports their engineering. (Shunyata and MIT come to mind). But handwaving leaves me unimpressed. I spent too may years in Missouri to ignore that states motto "Show me", which serves a scientist such as myself very well. On the other hand, I am also quite capable of being impressed when there is no data to be had, but the sonics speak for themselves. Wouldn't it be refreshing if a company would just say "hey, we have no freaking idea why this works or sounds like it does. Take it or leave it", rather than feeling compelled to put forth unsubstantiated pseudoscientific claims to support their work? It seems to me the latter occurs too often.
Marty
These issues go to the core of scientific credibility for me. I love companies that can show me verifiable data that supports their engineering. (Shunyata and MIT come to mind). But handwaving leaves me unimpressed. I spent too may years in Missouri to ignore that states motto "Show me", which serves a scientist such as myself very well. On the other hand, I am also quite capable of being impressed when there is no data to be had, but the sonics speak for themselves. Wouldn't it be refreshing if a company would just say "hey, we have no freaking idea why this works or sounds like it does. Take it or leave it", rather than feeling compelled to put forth unsubstantiated pseudoscientific claims to support their work? It seems to me the latter occurs too often.
Marty
Is this anything semi-related? ...mechanical vibration causing certain kinds of ceramics to absorb such vibration and in turn create tiny electrical fields...possible that other materials create a bit of heat?
Turning vibrations into energy, nanowire style
A new device based on piezoelectric nanowires aims to turn mechanical …
by Adam Stevenson - Nov 11, 2008 3:33pm GMT
Share Tweet
Considering the problems inherent to fossil fuel energy production and the increasing saturation of mobile electronic devices, one would think that we could waste less of the energy that we produce and carry with us. However, it turns out that we lose a huge fraction of our energy as excess heat and vibration. While some of the lost energy is impossible to recover (in this journal, we follow the laws of thermodynamics!), most waste heat and vibration can be captured and converted back into useable energy.
Piezoelectricity has been seen as the key to harnessing waste vibrations in mechanical devices. Piezoelectricity is a material property that is a characteristic of many ceramics with noncentrosymmetric crystal structures. When these materials are strained, they develop an electric field. Straining the material causes positive and negative ions in each unit cell to displace in different directions. This produces a small electrical field but, when it's summed over moles of unit cells, it can be quite substantial. To convert vibrations into energy, piezoelectric materials must be packaged into a device so that the vibrations cause strain that can be extracted through a connection to an appropriate electrical circuit.
As with most engineering problems today, nanotubes and nanowires are being tested for their piezoelectric potential. Nanowire mechanical energy harvesting devices place piezoelectric ZnO nanowires vertically on a flat substrate, and contact them with a zig-zag shaped electrode. As the device vibrates, the free-moving, zig-zag electrode flexes the nanowires, generating an electrical potential. While these devices can produce substantial fields and do not require control over the placement of the nanowires, the design leads to mechanical breakdown of the nanowires and short service lifetimes. Sealing difficulties also make this design prone to environmental attack.
Top (A): SEM image of ZnO nanowires
Middle (B): Schematic of a flexural based measurement system that is similar to "zig-zag" designs
Bottom (C): Plot of electrical response versus position showing the fields generated by discrete ZnO nanorods (credit for all three images: Georgia Institute of Technology through nsf.gov)
In this week's Nature Nanotechnology, researchers from Georgia Institute of Technology have modified the zig-zag design to increase its durability while maintaining efficiency. Their method was brilliantly simple—just lay the nanowires down to produce a laterally-packaged piezoelectric generator. In this system, ZnO nanowires were placed on a flexible polyimide film with both ends attached to a circuit. The researchers found that, when the film was flexed, a single nanowire could generate a 50 mV field with 6.8% efficiency. Clearly, the efficiency needs to be improved, but the device solves all of the major problems inherent to the previous design: the nanowires are not exposed to breaking stresses and the laterally packaged device is easily sealed.
The key to the design (and the real insight of the paper) is that at least one end of the nanowire must be electrically connected by a Shottkey contact rather than a simple ohmic contact. Ohmic contacts are characterized by a change in resistance at the junction, but Shottkey contacts create an electrical potential barrier that limits electron conduction. Non-stoichiometric defects at the wire ends perturb the band structure, resulting in a potential barrier in ZnO nanowires.
In laterally packaged piezoelectric systems, ohmic contacts allow electrical conduction that immediately negates the piezoelectric field, thus rendering the system useless. However, by incorporating Shottkey barriers on at least one end of the ZnO wire, electron conduction is severely limited because the piezoelectric field generated cannot overcome the Shottkey potential barrier. This causes electrons to pile up at the Shottkey barrier when the device is flexed; a discharge occurs when the strain is relieved. The result is an alternating field and current that can be easily harnessed for storage or used to drive an electrical device.
The device described in this study is a clear incremental step over the current zig-zag nanowire designs, but it is by no means a revolution—the efficiency is far too low and the fabrication has substantial scaling issues. However, with future research, both of these problems should be overcome and the substantial engineering advantages of this system could lay the groundwork for future functional devices.
Nature Nanotechnology DOI:10.1038/nnano.2008.314
Turning vibrations into energy, nanowire style
A new device based on piezoelectric nanowires aims to turn mechanical …
by Adam Stevenson - Nov 11, 2008 3:33pm GMT
Share Tweet
Considering the problems inherent to fossil fuel energy production and the increasing saturation of mobile electronic devices, one would think that we could waste less of the energy that we produce and carry with us. However, it turns out that we lose a huge fraction of our energy as excess heat and vibration. While some of the lost energy is impossible to recover (in this journal, we follow the laws of thermodynamics!), most waste heat and vibration can be captured and converted back into useable energy.
Piezoelectricity has been seen as the key to harnessing waste vibrations in mechanical devices. Piezoelectricity is a material property that is a characteristic of many ceramics with noncentrosymmetric crystal structures. When these materials are strained, they develop an electric field. Straining the material causes positive and negative ions in each unit cell to displace in different directions. This produces a small electrical field but, when it's summed over moles of unit cells, it can be quite substantial. To convert vibrations into energy, piezoelectric materials must be packaged into a device so that the vibrations cause strain that can be extracted through a connection to an appropriate electrical circuit.
As with most engineering problems today, nanotubes and nanowires are being tested for their piezoelectric potential. Nanowire mechanical energy harvesting devices place piezoelectric ZnO nanowires vertically on a flat substrate, and contact them with a zig-zag shaped electrode. As the device vibrates, the free-moving, zig-zag electrode flexes the nanowires, generating an electrical potential. While these devices can produce substantial fields and do not require control over the placement of the nanowires, the design leads to mechanical breakdown of the nanowires and short service lifetimes. Sealing difficulties also make this design prone to environmental attack.
Top (A): SEM image of ZnO nanowires
Middle (B): Schematic of a flexural based measurement system that is similar to "zig-zag" designs
Bottom (C): Plot of electrical response versus position showing the fields generated by discrete ZnO nanorods (credit for all three images: Georgia Institute of Technology through nsf.gov)
In this week's Nature Nanotechnology, researchers from Georgia Institute of Technology have modified the zig-zag design to increase its durability while maintaining efficiency. Their method was brilliantly simple—just lay the nanowires down to produce a laterally-packaged piezoelectric generator. In this system, ZnO nanowires were placed on a flexible polyimide film with both ends attached to a circuit. The researchers found that, when the film was flexed, a single nanowire could generate a 50 mV field with 6.8% efficiency. Clearly, the efficiency needs to be improved, but the device solves all of the major problems inherent to the previous design: the nanowires are not exposed to breaking stresses and the laterally packaged device is easily sealed.
The key to the design (and the real insight of the paper) is that at least one end of the nanowire must be electrically connected by a Shottkey contact rather than a simple ohmic contact. Ohmic contacts are characterized by a change in resistance at the junction, but Shottkey contacts create an electrical potential barrier that limits electron conduction. Non-stoichiometric defects at the wire ends perturb the band structure, resulting in a potential barrier in ZnO nanowires.
In laterally packaged piezoelectric systems, ohmic contacts allow electrical conduction that immediately negates the piezoelectric field, thus rendering the system useless. However, by incorporating Shottkey barriers on at least one end of the ZnO wire, electron conduction is severely limited because the piezoelectric field generated cannot overcome the Shottkey potential barrier. This causes electrons to pile up at the Shottkey barrier when the device is flexed; a discharge occurs when the strain is relieved. The result is an alternating field and current that can be easily harnessed for storage or used to drive an electrical device.
The device described in this study is a clear incremental step over the current zig-zag nanowire designs, but it is by no means a revolution—the efficiency is far too low and the fabrication has substantial scaling issues. However, with future research, both of these problems should be overcome and the substantial engineering advantages of this system could lay the groundwork for future functional devices.
Nature Nanotechnology DOI:10.1038/nnano.2008.314
It is a basic fact of physics that any vibrating object will transfer energy to the suspension system it rests on, and that some of this mechanical/vibtration energy is converted to heat. How much heat is a function of the physical properties of the suspension system. You don't need to measure this (i.e. "heat") to prove it; it's a law of physics. Whether or not the suspension system is effective in improving sound produced by the heavy object if it happens to be a speaker is a different question altogether, but measuring heat in the stillpoints is a complete and utterly useless exercise to get an answer to this question.
Well I too have no answer except to say that for my ears i had the same epiphany when I put the Ultra 5's under my Fathom subs as I did When I put Them under my Wilson X2's. I did not have that same experience when I put Ultra 5's under my amps even though I did reap some reward. However when I placed the 6's under the amps, for my ears the biggest improvement was the marked improvement in resolution and mid range clarity.
I had brilliant results putting the 5's under my speakers years ago (verity audio parsifal encore). I then got a whole bunch of 5's under electronics and never was able to hear a difference, so I sold them all. Based on my earlier experience with speakers, I want to give the 5 Ultra's a try under my MM3's.
