Does the Audiophile Community Have a Problem?

[PeterA]

Maybe some time for self reflection? Ironic thread title based on the 12 pages.

From the perspective of someone much,much younger than most here, I wholeheartedly agree with the headline of the article Marty posted. Breaking it down into more precise problems:

I think to change for the better, the community has to do a better job of addressing younger audiences. Beginner products may need to be more available to hear. People like good sound when they hear it, but the first step is giving people the opportunity to be exposed to it.

First, a warm welcome to EBITDAC. That was a very clear and well expressed first post. I, for one, am happy to have a younger person join our group. I appreciate the perspective you shared in your post.

It seems to me that the discussion over the last 12 pages has been much more about the WBF community than it has been about the audiophile community. Therefore, I don’t see the irony between the title of the thread and the content which follows.

I believe this particular audio forum tries to distinguish itself by both its name and the content and the the type of audiophile it attracts. I enjoy the discussions here primarily because of the level of experience the members have. The discussions seem generally fairly open and there is quite a range of types of systems and music. I have met a number of good friends here and have traveled to hear their systems. That has increased my exposure to different types of sound and approaches to the hobby.

In these discussions, I think we should make a distinction between our criticisms of the industry in general and our comments about ourselves.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi EBITDAC, which translates to a dac that makes good profit before taxes... Not many around.

Thanks for a good first post, which can be summarized as follows.
1. There are status / price snobs
2. There are anti snobs
3. Some anonymous posters misbehaved with their YouTube comments to women. Check out Twitter handles of women personalities.
4. Some commercial people are not willing to spend time where they don't see a quick return.

Can you please tell me how many areas of work, hobby, interests, etc that description can fit? It is not a problem for audiophiles alone

 

[andromedaaudio]

First, a warm welcome to EBITDAC. That was a very clear and well expressed first post. I, for one, am happy to have a younger person join our group. I appreciate the perspective you shared in your post.

It seems to me that the discussion over the last 12 pages has been much more about the WBF community than it has been about the audiophile community. Therefore, I don’t see the irony between the title of the thread and the content which follows.

I believe this particular audio forum tries to distinguish itself by both its name and the content and the the type of audiophile it attracts. I enjoy the discussions here primarily because of the level of experience the members have. The discussions seem generally fairly open and there is quite a range of types of systems and music. I have met a number of good friends here and have traveled to hear their systems. That has increased my exposure to different types of sound and approaches to the hobby.

In these discussions, I think we should make a distinction between our criticisms of the industry in general and our comments about ourselves.

Peter , basically its all said and done on this forum.
The horn camp has dug it self in , so has the cone camp .
Basically there is nothing more to say .
What still goes on though is fierce discussions to persuade members of other camps to leave their team and join the other team.

May be the planar team could throw a curve ball out of left field and start something but not much seems going on in that trench.

May be an armistice agreement could be signed

 

[Al M.]

From the perspective of someone much,much younger than most here, I wholeheartedly agree with the headline of the article Marty posted. Breaking it down into more precise problems:

Traditional snobbery - I’ve seen huge amounts of online gatekeeping in the form of dismissal because components aren’t expensive enough, your room isn’t treated enough, didn’t do x right, etc. I’ve also experienced the same from dealers, with one dealer I do otherwise like dismissing me because I had Heresy’s at the time. They were a stop on my way to AG’s, but that’s all I could afford and fit in my apartment at the time. People will move up the quality spectrum as their earnings power increase.

Anti-snob snobbery - On the other end of the spectrum r/audiophile and many large audiophile Facebook groups are full of people who viciously call anyone out who spends money on components beyond 5k or so, with extra venom reserved for people who don’t fully treat their rooms to the standards of these folks, or have cables that are better than lampcord. I think many of the ASR camp fall into here because they’re DSP’d Class D amp has no distortion or something. I think it’s a cover for jealousy of what some can afford and they know that they can’t and want to bring others down for it.

Women in audio - This definitely happens. Look at the kind of comments Andrew Robinson’s wife Kristi gets all the time in the comments. She stays off camera for a reason when she used to be on. Jana, of EARSPACE felt the need to retreat from her YouTube account after a period of heavy vitriol. She was probably the best person with a camera in the audio game.


The industry also has a structural problem with getting young people to make the jump from HeadFi to HiFi. Dealers are often hard to find outside of urban areas, and when you do find them, many carry products that are aspirational at best to many young people. You need a few systems before you jump to Goldmund. When you do go to a dealer, there is a feel that they’re rushed for time with you, which I get that they gotta pay rent. But $500 is the same level of purchase decision to most young people as $10,000 is to many of you and the dealers’ customers. They need time to make that decision. That’s on top of the pressures of reduced disposable income in younger millennials and gen z and the fact that urban apartments are tiny.

I think to change for the better, the community has to do a better job of addressing younger audiences. Beginner products may need to be more available to hear. People like good sound when they hear it, but the first step is giving people the opportunity to be exposed to it.

Hi EBITDAC, welcome to WBF. Thank you for a thoughtful post. I find a lot to agree with. A few points in reply:

I do think that criticism of setup and room treatment or lack thereof is not necessarily snobbery, but can, perhaps even in most cases, be constructive criticism that is well intended. If all criticism was perceived as snobbery, we could not learn anything to improve our systems.

Criticism should be fair game; I personally find it uncritical snobbery to automatically be in awe, as many apparently are, of million dollar setups which just don't look right, also in terms of room. Does spending lots of money automatically qualify for reverence for a system? I don't think so.

Criticism of "too cheap" components tends to be snobbery, I agree. Earlier in the thread there was also snobbery about headphone enthusiasts not being true audiophiles, which I find unfortunate.

I have heard setups which cost little money that I found very successful in presenting music and that I loved. I have also heard expensive setups that did nothing but cause me to scratch my head.

 

[bonzo75]

For those who don't know, Earnings before interest, taxes, and depreciation was EBITDA. The C was added in 2020 as earnings before corona

 

[Al M.]

The C was added in 2020 as earnings before corona

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jeff Bezos is loving it AFTER Covid.

 

[EBITDAC]

You write: "Beginner products may need to be more available to hear."

How do you think this should be accomplished?

Firstly, thank you for the warm welcome all.

Ron, I have a couple possible ideas.

-Have manufacturers of beginner products work with Best Buy to have someone with actual knowledge in store three days a week or something. I've noticed NYC Best Buys have a fair selection but no one with the knowledge to sell it.
- High end dealers could possibly have a very small footprint store or section of their store that focuses almost entirely on beginner and midfi
- Brands could work with smaller brands/influencers to show hifi products at gatherings. Linus Tech Tips did a small convention every year that seems ideal.


I acknowledge it's hard, especially at the low end where it's a volume game. I'll take some more time to think how to increase ease of exposure.

 

[EBITDAC]

Hi EBITDAC, which translates to a dac that makes good profit before taxes... Not many around.

Thanks for a good first post, which can be summarized as follows.
1. There are status / price snobs
2. There are anti snobs
3. Some anonymous posters misbehaved with their YouTube comments to women. Check out Twitter handles of women personalities.
4. Some commercial people are not willing to spend time where they don't see a quick return.

Can you please tell me how many areas of work, hobby, interests, etc that description can fit? It is not a problem for audiophiles alone

There many hobbies/areas of interest that fit this description of course. But other hobbies have recognized the demographic trends against them and have tried with varying success to change with the times. Golf had a massive youth outreach program that seems to have at least somewhat worked. I came up through a very large competitive youth golf environment. Younger stars helped shift the brands forward. NASCAR has tried as well, but ended up so convoluted that I have no idea who's winning a race anymore.

Hi EBITDAC, welcome to WBF. Thank you for a thoughtful post. I find a lot to agree with. A few points in reply:

I do think that criticism of setup and room treatment or lack thereof is not necessarily snobbery, but can, perhaps even in most cases, be constructive criticism that is well intended. If all criticism was perceived as snobbery, we could not learn anything to improve our systems.

Criticism should be fair game; I personally find it uncritical snobbery to automatically be in awe, as many apparently are, of million dollar setups which just don't look right, also in terms of room. Does spending lots of money automatically qualify for reverence for a system? I don't think so.

Criticism of "too cheap" components tends to be snobbery, I agree. Earlier in the thread there was also snobbery about headphone enthusiasts not being true audiophiles, which I find unfortunate.

I have heard setups which cost little money that I found very successful in presenting music and that I loved. I have also heard expensive setups that did nothing but cause me to scratch my head.

I absolutely agree with you that room setup, tuning, treatment criticism is often meant as constructive, especially in this forum. I have seen other audio forums that seem to take it over the top. There are real limitations to what one can do to treat a real room that doubles as a living room, while living with a significant other, and renting an apartment that changes once a year, or two years if lucky. Acknowledging realistic limitations is the crux of my point there in terms of where it turns to snobbery.

A millions dollar setup done badly is of course grounds for criticism. I agree with you fully on your second point as well.

The dogmatic anti expensive crowd is just as annoying and snobby as the too cheap crowd to me.

 

[tima]

Women in audio - This definitely happens. Look at the kind of comments Andrew Robinson’s wife Kristi gets all the time in the comments. She stays off camera for a reason when she used to be on. Jana, of EARSPACE felt the need to retreat from her YouTube account after a period of heavy vitriol. She was probably the best person with a camera in the audio game.

Sounds to me like you are bringing into WBF issues you have somewhere else. You have been a member here for about a year. Presumably that is enough time to gain familiarity with this forum. Rather than vague accusations or outside issues, your comments would have credibility if you backed them up with some specific examples from this forum. Is that unreasonable? I see little evidence of snobbery here - especially 'crowds' of snobbery - but maybe your criteria is different - examples would help clear up what you mean by your accusations.

Another example of vaguery is found in the OP's article:

Quote from OP article: "My favorite comment online that I see with great frequency is perhaps the most condescending and it’s sadly the norm in 2021. “I can’t help it if your hearing is not good enough to know the difference.”"

Since @nc42acc is so eager to have us reflect, perhaps he (or anyone else) can point to specific examples at WBF of that indictment to reflect upon. Apparently it happens a lot. Reflecting on vague generalities rarely bears fruit.

For all the huff over "wall tampons" I think more than a singular example is needed to establish the case of 'unfriendliness toward women" or a rationale for changing how we speak and act.

 

[EBITDAC]

Sounds to me like you are bringing into WBF issues you have somewhere else. You have been a member here for about a year. Presumably that is enough time to gain familiarity with this forum. Rather than vague accusations or outside issues, your comments would have credibility if you backed them up with some specific examples from this forum. Is that unreasonable? I see little evidence of snobbery here - especially 'crowds' of snobbery - but maybe your criteria is different - examples would help clear up what you mean by your accusations.

Tima, given that the title of the article is 'Does the Audiophile Community Have a Problem?', I figured that events in the larger audiophile community would be game to discuss here. I don't think I implied that the problems I discussed occurred in this forum, but I assume we are all members of other audio focused communities, and I've seen the problems I identified in the ones I'm a part of.

Given the stature of many of the members of this forum in audiophile media and production, how the hobby in general is perceived in the outside world is an important discussion to have.

 

[Al M.]

I absolutely agree with you that room setup, tuning, treatment criticism is often meant as constructive, especially in this forum. I have seen other audio forums that seem to take it over the top. There are real limitations to what one can do to treat a real room that doubles as a living room, while living with a significant other, and renting an apartment that changes once a year, or two years if lucky. Acknowledging realistic limitations is the crux of my point there in terms of where it turns to snobbery.

Ok, I see your point, thanks.

A millions dollar setup done badly is of course grounds for criticism. I agree with you fully on your second point as well.

The dogmatic anti expensive crowd is just as annoying and snobby as the too cheap crowd to me.

Agreed. And a million dollar setup done really well can sound awesome. There is a reason for expensive systems: they *can* lead to higher performance. But it doesn't miraculously come on its own, without all the hard work to make it happen.

 

[nc42acc]

Tima I can only reflect on how I fit into the audiophile community and how I should conduct my own actions. I have no control of any of the rest of the members. It was a suggestion not a mandate.
I posted the article to bring light to our community especially the online forums and basic courtesy to our fellow audiophiles. After 13 pages I feel like I am now damned to hell fire for eternity at WBF. Everyone who reads the article will focus on different topics.
There is no way women are going to get on board en masse in the audiophile hobby and men will be men and make crude comments. If women want to jump in this ring they better grow thick skin.
My grandfather told me about the golden rule, hasn’t let me down yet.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Firstly, thank you for the warm welcome all.

Ron, I have a couple possible ideas.

-Have manufacturers of beginner products work with Best Buy to have someone with actual knowledge in store three days a week or something. I've noticed NYC Best Buys have a fair selection but no one with the knowledge to sell it.
- High end dealers could possibly have a very small footprint store or section of their store that focuses almost entirely on beginner and midfi
- Brands could work with smaller brands/influencers to show hifi products at gatherings. Linus Tech Tips did a small convention every year that seems ideal.


I acknowledge it's hard, especially at the low end where it's a volume game. I'll take some more time to think how to increase ease of exposure.

These are all interesting ideas!

 

[tima]

Tima I can only reflect on how I fit into the audiophile community and how I should conduct my own actions.
...

Yet you are evangelizing to all:

I posted the article to bring light to our community especially the online forums and basic courtesy to our fellow audiophiles.

I read that article again - it only got worse - there is no 'light'. It is rambling self-righteous finger wagging from someone whose primary motive appears to want to draw attention to himself - a self described audiofool. And you brought him here to lecture us. What did you expect the reaction to be?

But for a few rude exceptions, basic courtesy is rampant at WBF.

There is no way women are going to get on board en masse in the audiophile hobby and men will be men and make crude comments. If women want to jump in this ring they better grow thick skin.

Nor are men going to take up crochet en masse. I suspect many women would be insulted at the suggestion that they can't handle an audio forum without growing thicker skin.

 

[tima]

Tima, given that the title of the article is 'Does the Audiophile Community Have a Problem?', I figured that events in the larger audiophile community would be game to discuss here.

When I login here, I don't login to every audio forum. Yet you imply that the "events" to which you refer to as everywhere are not only real, but occur here, in virtue of your belief in something called "the larger audiophile community". If one is guilty all are guilty?

I don't think I implied that the problems I discussed occurred in this forum, but I assume we are all members of other audio focused communities, and I've seen the problems I identified in the ones I'm a part of.

Nor did you imply the problems you discuss do not occur at WBF. Sweeping generalities. I asked for some evidence, but apparently none is forthcoming.

If you believe you experience your issues in the forums in which you participate, don't you think it more appropriate to address them where they supposedly occur rather than bringing them to a place where you have very limited participation? With zero evidence, it comes across as carpetbagging.

 

[bonzo75]

It's because cats are treated like Jorts that they do not join the audio hobby. We should ban all such Pams

https://twitter.com/x/status/1470862918908624908

 

[ctydwn]

When I login here, I don't login to every audio forum. Yet you imply that the "events" to which you refer to as everywhere are not only real, but occur here, in virtue of your belief in something called "the larger audiophile community". If one is guilty all are guilty?



Nor did you imply the problems you discuss do not occur at WBF. Sweeping generalities. I asked for some evidence, but apparently none is forthcoming.

If you believe you experience your issues in the forums in which you participate, don't you think it more appropriate to address them where they supposedly occur rather than bringing them to a place where you have very limited participation? With zero evidence, it comes across as carpetbagging.

imho, EBITDAC was simply trying to add to the discussion and provided non- defensive articulated responses to your first retort. Why rake him/her over the coals again? There would have been other ways to make these points. It seems if some on this forum would not like to welcome the younger generation of audiophiles and listen to their thoughts, experiences and opinions, responses like this seem like a great template.

 

[Al M.]

Tima I can only reflect on how I fit into the audiophile community and how I should conduct my own actions. I have no control of any of the rest of the members. It was a suggestion not a mandate.
I posted the article to bring light to our community especially the online forums and basic courtesy to our fellow audiophiles. After 13 pages I feel like I am now damned to hell fire for eternity at WBF.

No, you're not . Thanks, Marty, for initiating an interesting discussion!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good article Marty .
Do you have any more ?