DSD comparison to PCM.

[PeterSt]

I feel that if a DAC needs "special" software to show its best, then inherently something is broken. You don't need special software to run any other DAC I know of because if you do, put it in the DAC to begin with.

Nah, but then you didn't get it quite. This DAC has been created deliberately 100% on purpose to contain exactly nothing just in order to allow "us" to provide it with the filtering which seems best to you and your ears. So, it's a NOS/Filterless DAC and it *needs* that filtering. Not everybody acquainted to NOS will tell you this, but I do. And as I said before, that XXHighEnd provides that best filtering (everybody is allowed to use the playback software of choice) I can't help. Sort of.

Can we say this is modern times ?

Regards and thanks for the welcome.
Peter

 

[Andre Marc]

feel that if a DAC needs "special" software to show its best, then inherently something is broken. You don't need special software to run any other DAC I know of because if you do, put it in the DAC to begin with. Bricasti and others can do it.
.

Interesting observation Bruce. Do you think in general if a DAC is "sensitive" to software and cables this calls into question some elements of the design?

 

[Andre Marc]

Glad you could join us Peter!

Back then I was using Pyramix and the DAD AX24 (which I stil use today as rebadged as Sphynx 2) and the dCS 905/955.

I feel that if a DAC needs "special" software to show its best, then inherently something is broken. You don't need special software to run any other DAC I know of because if you do, put it in the DAC to begin with. Bricasti and others can do it.

And yes, I use null tests all the time. It's an important tool to use when you "think" something sounds different.

Hey Bruce:

Dave Clark at PFO is sending me a MyTek to review....how has it been holding up for you?

 

[TBone]

Although it is OT, you are finally getting into the beginning of what IMHO, makes a dac a dac or any hifi equipment for that matter. How many dacs nowadays have that kind of attention paid to it? Very very few. The once mighty SCD-1 (I used to own one), a product that possibly was sold at a loss as a statement for SACD, has more than 10 opamps in its signal path. Its output design just copied BB's white paper wholesale. If this could happen to a statement product, what about most other dacs that is built to a price point? Peter alluded to the compromise manufacturers take in every product they make, be it immature tech, cost pressure, logistical constraints etc etc, even the so-called high-end. This, I am afraid, is the reality.

Add to the fact that these players (SC1+777) were marketed (esp. by the audio media) as the next best thing since sliced bread. Remember the reviews & audiophile hype about SACD so-called superiority, not just to CD, but many claimed LP. Some even claimed that these players represented the very best CD playback, so why even consider a dedicated CDP? All failed to mention their obviously high noise-floor characteristics, or their tendency to unravel and change tonality during difficult passages or the very soft/slow bass.

Instead, most audiophiles were led to believe that SACD was the next version of "perfect sound forever"; and now I'm reading about DSD so called "superiority" compared to high-rez PCM?

tb1

 

[Orb]

It is made even more confusing IMO by DXD being pushed as the ultimate in "superiority" compared to anything else.
The whitepaper is interesting because Bruno Putzeys touches on the subject of DSD and DXD format and transparency/quality/only to resolve technical issues.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/whitepapers/dsd faq.pdf

Cheers
Orb

 

[Bruce B]

It is made even more confusing IMO by DXD being pushed as the ultimate in "superiority" compared to anything else.
The whitepaper is interesting because Bruno Putzeys touches on the subject of DSD and DXD format and transparency/quality/only to resolve technical issues.
http://www.grimmaudio.com/whitepapers/dsd faq.pdf

Cheers
Orb

Well just about every mastering we did for FIM was done in DXD. The label preferred it.... It's not to my taste. Maybe because they thought bigger numbers equated to better sound? I see they are doing 32-bit mastering... which is a play on words since there is no A-D that will do 32-bit. If you want big #'s I have software that will do 64 and 72fp math.

 

[Bruce B]

Interesting observation Bruce. Do you think in general if a DAC is "sensitive" to software and cables this calls into question some elements of the design?

If other's can do it with success, then that's how it should be. You have another layer of "something can go wrong" when you start using the computer to manipulate the DAC.

It's the same thing with clocks and PS. If you need an external clock to make a DAC sound better, then the DAC must be broken!

Hey Bruce:

Dave Clark at PFO is sending me a MyTek to review....how has it been holding up for you?

I'm using them for all my restoration and forensic work. Works perfectly. They can really dig down and get to the details that I need for fixing projects.

 

[Andre Marc]

If other's can do it with success, then that's how it should be. You have another layer of "something can go wrong" when you start using the computer to manipulate the DAC.

It's the same thing with clocks and PS. If you need an external clock to make a DAC sound better, then the DAC must be broken!

I'm using them for all my restoration and forensic work. Works perfectly. They can really dig down and get to the details that I need for fixing projects.

Thanks Bruce....agree with your premise..

Thanks for the word up on the MyTek.

One last quick question..forget your profession..assuming you a had a decent, but not unlimited budget,
without being held to an absolute..which DACs would you consider strictly for pleasurable listening in a
regular old two channel listening environment with commercially released music? I'm very curious..as
you have heard so many.

 

[dallasjustice]

Bruce,
If I may try to help Peter out a little here. I think what he's saying is that the DAC and his software are one in the same thing. He's saying you need the filter provided by the software to hear what he intended for the DAC to sound like. It's confusing because he calls it an NOS DAC and it's really not an NOS DAC if you consider that the DAC and the software are part of a whole unit. It DOES need a filter to sound it's best and the filter is provided by the manufacturer's software. I've never used the DAC, but I've deciphered Peter's musing over the years and I think I got a handle on his basic design.

I am glad you used Bricasti as an example of a manufacturer that provides and updates their filters on the DAC itself, so the user doesn't need to use special software. Peter does the same thing, but instead of updating the filter on the DAC itself, he can simply update XXhighend.

I respect your pursuit for a great NOS sound and I hope you don't give up.

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks Bruce....agree with your premise..

Thanks for the word up on the MyTek.

One last quick question..forget your profession..assuming you a had a decent, but not unlimited budget,
without being held to an absolute..which DACs would you consider strictly for pleasurable listening in a
regular old two channel listening environment with commercially released music? I'm very curious..as
you have heard so many.

If I were a consumer just listening to music, I'd certainly look into the Playback Designs and EMM Labs. I know people don't like to troubleshoot things and these things just work. Also I like the BADA, Bricasti and MSB.

 

[Andre Marc]

If I were a consumer just listening to music, I'd certainly look into the Playback Designs and EMM Labs. I know people don't like to troubleshoot things and these things just work. Also I like the BADA, Bricasti and MSB.

Thanks Bruce. Obviously great DACs. Audiostream just reviewed the new Playback Designs unit.

FYI..just plugged in the Mytek. Woah. After just an hour I find it very impressive, especially in bass weight
and articulation. Super resolving across the board. Of course, this is just an initial impression.

 

[opus111]

Thanks Opus and if notice anything else in the thread please post.

Made it to the end now. What struck me as interesting was the poster called 'Seagoat' had a lot of interesting things to say but at least two of his posts got deleted and the link to the engineer's view he said he was going to post up isn't there either. Seems to me he was censored by the owner of that board - after all he did explicitly say that there were engineers who wouldn't publicly say DSD sounded bad to them because it would lose them business. Dan Lavry has said a similar thing in regard to 192k PCM - that engineers told him off the record that they agreed with him but they'd not 'come out' for fear of their businesses suffering.

 

[lasercd]

I am glad you used Bricasti as an example of a manufacturer that provides and updates their filters on the DAC itself, so the user doesn't need to use special software. Peter does the same thing, but instead of updating the filter on the DAC itself, he can simply update XXhighend.

Don't mean to hijack the thread - there is a major update coming to the Bricasti M1.

 

[Bruce B]

Made it to the end now. What struck me as interesting was the poster called 'Seagoat' had a lot of interesting things to say but at least two of his posts got deleted and the link to the engineer's view he said he was going to post up isn't there either. Seems to me he was censored by the owner of that board - after all he did explicitly say that there were engineers who wouldn't publicly say DSD sounded bad to them because it would lose them business. Dan Lavry has said a similar thing in regard to 192k PCM - that engineers told him off the record that they agreed with him but they'd not 'come out' for fear of their businesses suffering.

Dan Lavry has converters to sell, though I do commend him for sticking to his guns and not implementing DSD and following the industry. It may come back to bite him for bad business practices.

I don't see how any engineer would hold their tongue about sample rates for fear it would hurt their business.

 

[Robin Hood]

Speaking of sample rates, how can you compare DSD to PCM without discussing sampling rates?

I have my opinion that DSD128 sounds better than 176.4/192 PCM (24-bit)
and 176.4/192 PCM (24-bit) sounds better than DSD64
and both DSD64 and 88.2/96 PCM sound better than 44.1/48 PCM.

So in today's world since 176.4/192 PCM is more readily available than DSD128 (unless you do your own DSD128 recordings), perhaps 176.4/192 PCM wins this battle for now.

And if given the choice, I would almost always choose DSD128 or 176.4/192 PCM over any other digital formats.

 

[MarinJim]

I was thinking and wondering why the quality of the engineering and construction of the DACs is not discussed more. I will take a quality of build over what is the lasted and "hip". What about resisters, caps and power supplies? Do they have more of a bearing on a DAC's sound?

 

[Bruce B]

I was thinking and wondering why the quality of the engineering and construction of the DACs is not discussed more. I will take a quality of build over what is the lasted and "hip". What about resisters, caps and power supplies? Do they have more of a bearing on a DAC's sound?

I will tell you that the DAD AX24 is a POS as far as build quality........ The best build quality I've seen is the Grimm.... weighs a ton and feels like copper plated cast iron!!

 

[MarinJim]

I will tell you that the DAD AX24 is a POS as far as build quality........ The best build quality I've seen is the Grimm.... weighs a ton and feels like copper plated cast iron!!

What's up with the sarcasm? I was asking a honest question.

 

[Bruce B]

What's up with the sarcasm? I was asking a honest question.

Because I don't know what's it made of.... it just feels like it should be cast iron. Maybe I used the wrong icon...

I sill say the DAD AX24 is a POS when it comes to build quality. Very thin gauge stamped steel.

 

[MarinJim]

Because I don't know what's it made of.... it just feels like it should be cast iron. Maybe I used the wrong icon...

I sill say the DAD AX24 is a POS when it comes to build quality. Very thin gauge stamped steel.

So sorry, you did use the sarcasm icon. Carry on!