DSD comparison to PCM.

Hey Peter just quick question about 2L.
Are all their music now recorded as DXD and SACD or DSD releases derived from this?
Just curious as it is interesting that some prefer their SACD/DSD to PCM DXD releases when comparing, which would be interesting if both have come from DXD process.
Any idea what they use for ADC and DAW?

Thanks
Orb
 
Hey Peter just quick question about 2L.
Are all their music now recorded as DXD and SACD or DSD releases derived from this?
Just curious as it is interesting that some prefer their SACD/DSD to PCM DXD releases when comparing, which would be interesting if both have come from DXD process.
Any idea what they use for ADC and DAW?

Thanks
Orb


2L does everything in DXD 24/352.8kHz. ADC and DAC is the Merging Horus with Pyramix workstation.

SACD's are up sampled from PCM
 
2L does everything in DXD 24/352.8kHz. ADC and DAC is the Merging Horus with Pyramix workstation.

SACD's are up sampled from PCM

I infer from the technical specs (in particular the latency of 250uS for 44k1) that the PCM is down-sampled from some internal noise shaped low-bit format. The ADC's latency would be due to the down-conversion filter. Ditto their D/A stage which comes with 188uS of delay.
 
2L does everything in DXD 24/352.8kHz. ADC and DAC is the Merging Horus with Pyramix workstation.

SACD's are up sampled from PCM

Thanks Bruce, interesting then those who prefer their latest SACD/DSD version to the DXD one; been mention of it even on a few threads at WBF.
The issue then is not DXD within the studio, but comes back to the end cycle-remaster and playback.
Lots of technical possibilities why including filters/noise shaping, but also wondering about dither (once applied multiple times) and potential audibility difference between PCM and DSD playback.
Cheers
Orb
 
The problem with DSD, as I saw it, was distortion (i.e. artificial 'rounding' and 'softening' of the sound), but that was remedied with the Grimm AD1, which is quite frankly the best and most accurate sounding converter I've ever heard - be it PCM or DSD. The sound is really smooth, tight and true with no perceivable distortion at all. A remarkable design. Now can we get them to make one that does 128fs with equally low distortion?
 
What is interesting though is how quite a few like prefer 2L DSD to the DXD release even when both come from native DXD.
So is this preference down to some masking effect/filtering/noise shaping results?

Not sure if 128fs is really needed Rwetmore, if follow Grimm Audio's papers and also anecdotal results of transcoding DXD to DSD.
Cheers
Orb
 
What is interesting though is how quite a few like prefer 2L DSD to the DXD release even when both come from native DXD.
So is this preference down to some masking effect/filtering/noise shaping results?
Orb

I think it has more to do with the DAC. There are a lot more decent DSD DAC's out there than DXD capable DAC's. And the DXD capable DAC's all seem to upsample to DSD128fs anyway!
 
What is interesting though is how quite a few like prefer 2L DSD to the DXD release even when both come from native DXD.
So is this preference down to some masking effect/filtering/noise shaping results?

I have lots of 2L releases and the PCM sounds pretty much the same as the converted DSD to me. BTW, I think DXD, as 2L uses it, is really 128fs at 4 or 5 bits and not really native 352.8Khz/24bit. None the less, 2L DXD does not sound as good as the Grimm (to me), as it too exhibits some artificial softening and rounding of the sound, though still sounds excellent of course.

Not sure if 128fs is really needed Rwetmore, if follow Grimm Audio's papers and also anecdotal results of transcoding DXD to DSD.

How so? The key would be if they can keep the distortion as low at 128fs, which perhaps they might not be able to do. At any rate, what the Grimm brothers have done with the AD1 has not been equaled by any other converter that I've heard. If I were an engineer, I couldn't accept the use of anything else.
 
I agree Bruce it probably does come down to playback, but there are several tests that could be done, and maybe it is about preferences relating to the filter/noise shaping results.

RWetmore, Bruce has mentioned in the past the setup of 2L, which is native DXD.
Regarding 64fs vs 128fs, Bruno has mentioned in a paper he does not see a need for 128fs, but then I appreciate some other engineers may had presented 128fs is better technically.
Anyone else seen other papers comparing 64fs vs 128fs?
One idea RWetmore, you able to find out whether any of your preferences with DSD has been edited/mixed meaning it would be transcoded to DXD and back to DSD again?
To keep native/wideband DSD, I think (may be very wrong here) limits what can be done in the studio but appreciate this may be applicable to quite a few recordings.

Bruce can you comment about this as it would be really appreciated to have it clarified from someone using DSD in the studio.

Cheers
Orb
 
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Bruce can you comment about this as it would be really appreciated to have it clarified from someone using DSD in the studio.
Orb

To keep something strictly DSD throughout, you can not have any edits. Think of it this way.... direct to disc recording. There are no do overs. Now if you really do need to edit or apply processing, I go out my DSD DAC into analog processing and back through a DSD A/D.
Or, if the take is good, then the only processing you would need is top/tail and fades. Only where you did the edits gets processed either as DXD or DSD-wide, depending on which workstation you use.
I just think 2L has it backwards.... If you're releasing a SACD, then record natively in DSD. Then take the DSD file and go to PCM if you need to!
 
Thanks Bruce,
realistically how often do you think a recording can be kept native DSD and released without any edits requiring transcoding internally to DXD/PCM?
I thought it would be rare because I remember Linn Records mentioning in the past it was a headache with their SACD releases, which did require editing and therefore converting to PCM.

Cheers
Orb
 
I thought it would be rare because I remember Linn Records mentioning in the past it was a headache with their SACD releases, which did require editing and therefore converting to PCM.

Not as rare as you may think. A lot of it depends on the equipment a label, or mastering house has invested. As Bruce mentioned, strictly speaking, you can't have any edits. But that's not really the issue that affects the sound quality of a DSD recording. By and large, the majority of native DSD recordings are edited with either a Sonoma or Pyramix workstation. The Sonoma (and DSD SADiE workstations) operates in DSD Wide, which requires no decimation, the villain in DSD to PCM conversion. The processing all takes place at 64fs sample rate, and with edits, only in the crossfade region.

Pyramix, on the other hand, developed DXD for editing and post processing of DSD files. This is simply a 8X downsampling (2.8Mhz > 352.8KHz) and 32 bit conversion of 64fs DSD, and does require decimation. For editing, Pyramix supports butt DSD editing with no DXD conversion (which is rarely ever used), and crossfade editing, where only the edit region is converted to DXD. That amount of time is typically in the hundred or so millisecond area.

The far larger problem for DSD purity than edits are level changes, and any effects processing (EQ, reverb etc.) These must be done over the entire length of the file of interest, and in either DXD, or converted to PCM or analog, and routed to an external device. Then of course, it needs to be converted back to DSD for release. For just level changes, the Sonoma has an advantage of DSD Wide, processing at 64fs, and requiring no decimation. Level changing is typically required where all mics are recorded (tracked) at full gain, and mixed (balanced) in post production.

Several labels take advantage of maintaining either all native DSD engineering, or one so close that for practical value, except for edit regions, it's unprocessed native DSD. Blue Coast records and edits in tape, and archives for release to DSD. The entire Telarc catalog was recorded and edited on Sonoma workstations. Channel Classics does a analog stereo mix at the session, and only edits in DXD in post. The recordings from these, as well as others that strive to maintain native DSD throughout their production represent a surprisingly large catalog. Even the Pink Floyd Albums mixed by James Guthrie were all done on a Sonoma.
 
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Tailspn,
what about modern recordings rather than remastering original tapes that are then done to DSD?
The only reason I am unsure is because in an interview Linn Records mentioned need to transcode to PCM their recordings.
DSD wide has similar issues I thought to 1-bit DSD, in that it is limited.

So when is editing required, because it seems your suggesting it is not needed in the studio?
Actually I also put EQ-Reverb as part of editing, which seems is where we differentiate on its definition (appreciate my interpretation is possibly wrong).
It seems you agree that EQ-Reverb-processing does require transcoding to DXD/PCM; so how many recordings do not have any editing with processing that includes being "cleaned up"-EQ-Reverb-mixes-etc?

Cheers
Orb
 
Hi, can anyone confirm if to fully realise the monotonic potential of DSD bitstream it should be converted using a true 1-bit 'bit converter' ?

I've been told that only the very first SACD players like the Sony's SCD-1 that I still own employed such device.

If that is true, then no matter what s done on the recording / mixing / editing / mastering side the final consumer will never get true DSD!

Doesn't this end every conversation about DSD?

Just asking, not stating!

Boy how I'd hope it would be available to retrofit my SCD-1 to be DSD over USB compliant.

That and an upgrade on the analog side , that I've been told does wonders, and I would be more than ok as a DSD option,instead of having to spend big bucks on a new DAC.
 
Tailspn,
what about modern recordings rather than remastering original tapes that are then done to DSD?

Hi Orb,

I'm talking about modern recordings. Actually, I'm talking only about acoustical event recording, mostly classical music and jazz, recorded in an event space like a concert hall. What Linn does in its production of recordings is applicable only to Linn. If you read again my post above, I detail the options available to any label/production company. How they implement those options is their decision, reflecting their priorities.

Non studio recording today, and almost as far back as electrical recording, is divided between the actual session, and post processing and mastering. The session recording can be either simply tracked with one mic per channel, and mixed/balanced later in the editing and mastering studio, or mixed/balanced in an analog desk at the session, and simply archived to the recording device. The former is the safest, and most common procedure, and the latter the best sounding, but risky.

In both instances, the session master must be edited. This is simply the assembly of "takes" by the producer/editor, with conductor input, to achieve the best musical interpretation. At this same time, for projects tracked with one mic per channel at full gain, the various mic/channels are mixed and balanced to present the orchestra/band/music piece to the producer's and conductor's liking. This form of production is what Linn is referencing needing to be converted to PCM. That is not the case however with editing on either a Sonoma or SADiE DSD workstation. There is no conversion to PCM, and no down sampling with attendant decimation. Editing (splicing) and level changes (mixing/balancing) are done at 64fs DSD sampling rate, but in an 8 bit parallel word format.

If the project was mixed and balanced in analog at the session, then editing is just the assembly of takes in DSD. Again, if the editing was preformed on a Sonoma, the edit region is the only period where DSD Wide is implemented. If done on a Pyramix, the same is true, but the edit region only is DXD. The remaining time is unaltered native DSD.

If the label determines it also wants sweetening of some form, EQ/reverb/et al, then the entire project must be converted and processed in DXD, just like level balancing and mixing, or as Bruce states, converted to analog, externally processed, and converted back to DSD. There are as many different processes in making a recording as there are labels and production houses.

As to recordings, as I stated in my post above, Telarc are all Sonoma processed, Blue Coast tracks to tape, and edits in tape, then using a Sonoma and ADC, archives to DSD. Channel Classics mixes and balances (stereo) in analog at the session, and edits (splices) with a Pyramix in DXD (affecting the edit regions only). Those are three that I know of, and there are certainly more.

Tom
 
The best is just too much

Well there you go!!

That's easy.... Playback Designs MPD-5 or MSB Diamond........

> $15,000.00 to hear it all...(not to mention appropriate compatible gear) what a bargain to get good DSD playback! Glad you can afford it as it's your profession but what about the other 99%?. I suppose in all fairness we shouldn't really be reading a forum titled "What's Best".

Stereomojo reviewer... I used to read Steromojo but it seems to be near defunct with only older reviews and little (if any) activity lately :confused: Maybe $15,000.00 compnonents weren't considered by most to be eligible for "Reviews of affordable components for the budget music enthusiast..." (their tag-line).
 
A Mytek Stereo 192 will play back both DSDx1 and DSDx2. It sounds great and it cost $1600. I own one and I love it.
 
A Mytek Stereo 192 will play back both DSDx1 and DSDx2. It sounds great and it cost $1600. I own one and I love it.

Thanks for the reply...I've read about the Mytek and it is an interseting option. I need to determine if it is too far into dinimishing return territory compared to a decent SACD player. It certainly seems more adept at redbook (and I suppose everything but SACD).
 
Thanks for the reply...I've read about the Mytek and it is an interseting option. I need to determine if it is too far into dinimishing return territory compared to a decent SACD player. It certainly seems more adept at redbook (and I suppose everything but SACD).

There are also other options on this non ultra-high-end DSD (in terms of price and not necessarily performance) capable dacs that could be taken into account, such as, just to name a few:

Exasound e20
Auralic Vega
resonance lab invicta
Upcoming Ayre QB-9 upgrade for DSD enable

And so many others...

A comprehensive list of DSD capable dacs can be seen here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE
 
Thanks for the reply...I've read about the Mytek and it is an interseting option. I need to determine if it is too far into dinimishing return territory compared to a decent SACD player. It certainly seems more adept at redbook (and I suppose everything but SACD).

I have the MyTek in my second system now.

Choosing it or a good SACD player is a non equivalent choice.

Do you have a decent collection of SACDs? Are they ripped to your hard drive?

If not, then you may want to look at the Marantz SA-15s2B
http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-a...15s2b-limited-edition-sacd-player-review.html

This is a scary good player at two grand. SPDIF inputs on TosLink and Coax to boot.
I really regret not buying the review sample, but then again, I would have spent a fortune on
Analogue Production and MoFi SACDs!
 

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