DSD to Vinyl Versus Analog Tape to Vinyl

For my 2 cents "trial and error" is a vital part of the scientific method. That is why we sent monkeys 8nto space. No matter how good your theory or measurements are, it has to be put to the test. I would suggest your vast equipment was designed in part by "trial and error."
What could involve more guess work than remastering" whats lost in the original recording can never be regained. You may guess.but is an approximation at best influenced by the remasterer. It may be your guess is better than those without "equipment." But is a guess nonetheless.
That is why I hoped you had some original recordings using your methods.
After all the proofs in the pudding not the recipe.
 
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I advocate for an active solution at the source *when needed* and a 'static' solution thereafter.
 
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For one it might take up a lot of room when it is discovered that was adding a veil at best. Might be quite useful in the studio though to solve a problem.

What makes you think that these extremely well engineered, expertly designed and exquisite pieces of equipment will veil the sound? To a greater extend than your equipment?

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What makes you think that these extremely well designed
and exquisite pieces of equipment will veil the sound? To a greater extend than your equipment?

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I agree, it is beautiful. And specifically meant to modify. So yes, I would expect it to veil the sound since it appears meant for that. 'Sound' meaning 'signal' in this case. When you are altering the sound with intention, its hard to come up with any other conclusion! What am I missing??
 
I agree, it is beautiful. And specifically meant to modify. So yes, I would expect it to veil the sound since it appears meant for that. 'Sound' meaning 'signal' in this case. When you are altering the sound with intention, its hard to come up with any other conclusion! What am I missing??

I do not understand that logic. The circuits in these equipment are no different than your circuits, actually they are more advanced and sophisticated. Are you making a point that a Soulution or CH Acoustics piece of equipment vails the sound because they are more sophisticated? What is the point here? Clearly explain how a circuit meant to alter will vail more than a circuit intended to amplify. They can both be transparent as they can be couldn’t they? Or is your point that they alter therefore they must vail? There is simply no good logic there with that argument. These pieces were designed to do a job and that is just what they do. No different than any other piece of proven gear. You do realize that equipment like these, and most likely of lesser quality, is what is used to produce the music that we listen to. Could it be that they did not harm the music then but now they could? Help me see your point here.
 
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So here we are 347 posts deep on a specific subject ' dsd or tape to vinyl'.

I would say a real world 'wbf exclusive' test is in order. Find a band into analog that wants to print a AAA vinyl release already. Then fund a parallel dsd print ( not a lot of $), master both via the same facilty ( ~ twice the original costs but not a lot more than a fancy fuse) and create a 2x300 piece run. sell to subscribers to the test and listen.

( I realize that no two masters are 100% identical )

Or we can keep talking ;)
 
It's not remastering just a tweak no mater. How exotic tot is?
In theory but not in practice. Read this or any other audiophile forum and everyone is seasoning their systems, with bullshit tweaks and whatever someone claims is good and expensive, to suit their own taste.
 
I do not remaster recordings for anyone other than for myself. I do not own or have worked at a professional studio. So none of the remastering that I have done are available commercially. When I use my two remastering systems I do the adjustments real time for myself as I’m listening during my listening sessions. It’s very satisfying to get better sound out of recordings that need it and having the equipment in-house to do so. It is very commanding to have that much power at your finger tips. Obviously I don’t do that for every recording nor do I use these to systems often. Currently my go to is HQPLAYER as it enhances all my digital recordings and streaming without all the effort.
There is nothing wrong here.
Better is a subjective. I am sure you have excellent taste and exotic equipment but does that make it less subjective?
 
I have thought about a pro eq to put into a tape loop, just to play. Schitt audio makes affordable units to try it out.
 
I do not understand that logic. The circuits in these equipment are no different than your circuits, actually they are more advanced and sophisticated. Are you making a point that a Soulution or CH Acoustics piece of equipment vails the sound because they are more sophisticated? What is the point here? Clearly explain how a circuit meant to alter will vail more than a circuit intended to amplify. They can both be transparent as they can be couldn’t they? Or is your point that they alter therefore they must vail? There is simply no good logic there with that argument. These pieces were designed to do a job and that is just what they do. No different than any other piece of proven gear. You do realize that equipment like these, and most likely of lesser quality, is what is used to produce the music that we listen to. Could it be that they did not harm the music then but now they could? Help me see your point here.
Hm. I doubt they are significantly more sophisticated. It might interest you to know that we have two patents for a method of direct coupling to a balanced line; thus creating an alternate method other than a transformer of meeting the criteria of AES48. Plus I hold a patent in the field of class D, and we've engineered a class D amp entirely from scratch... if you have a grasp of engineering principles, you might consider that you mis-stated that. But this is not to denigrate those products.

We might have a semantic issue here. If a circuit is altering the signal other than simple amplification, in my book by definition its introducing a coloration, a veil. As best I can make out you don't use that same definition. FWIW the definition I use is a common ethos in high end audio.

All studio equipment causes a loss of definition- starting at the microphones. Run that thru a mic transformer and you have introduced phase shift due to bandwidth limitations, as well as distortion (transformers have to be loaded properly to prevent ringing, but that isn't the same as saying they make no distortion).

Then the signal proceeds to the mic preamps where more colorations are introduced. Sometimes that is very slight; for example opamps can be used to be very neutral. Even with modern opamps though, you're asking for trouble if you expect more than 20dB of gain out of them due to Gain Bandwidth Product limitations. That is why older opamps tended to have a 'sound'; their GBP was lower.

You can't escape colorations due to distortion. The more blocks you have in the amplification chain, the more distortion you will have. I've heard the old saw about how distortion is 'so low it can't be heard' which is often false. Higher ordered harmonics which are common in solid state gear are easily heard by the ear as brightness and harshness; the ear uses them to sense sound pressure so if any are added the ear attributes that tonality.

So if you have barely a hint of distortion from some upstream source like a mic preamp or mixer, a simple twist of the treble control can enhance harmonic distortion that may have been a lot harder to hear prior to that adjustment.

People often accuse SETs of being 'tone controls' and to a certain degree I think this is correct- I have a pet theory that one reason they became popular was due to the 2nd harmonic they add, which nicely complements the dry sound of digital back in the 1990s when SETs entered the high end scene.

Using an actual tone control or an SET, using a certain WE transformer, a device that adds reverb, compression, limiting, DSP processing and so on is adding coloration and distortion. I don't see how anyone could see it any other way (although I can accept that you might, even though I don't understand it). If I were a manufacturer of such product, I'd probably want to make sure that as my equipment did its job, it did it as cleanly as possible. But its adding coloration no ifs, ands or buts. I just updated one of my Mutron Biphases with new regulation and filter capactors. I also replaced some of the opamps, changed some coupling caps from nonpolar to film, all in an attempt to minimize the 'sound' of its older opamp circuitry, while retaining its famous phase shifting ability. I have this piece rack mounted with my other gear. The reason I did this was so I can add phase shift in post.

I'm not attaching a value here! I've found after 46 years in manufacturing that audiophiles all express their love of music in different ways. Some like to trade gear constantly. Some seek only the first press of LPs. Others have minimal systems, some employ multiple amps and DSP room correction. What is important in my mind is that we all have fun doing what we like to do.
 
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Hm. I doubt they are significantly more sophisticated. It might interest you to know that we have two patents for a method of direct coupling to a balanced line; thus creating an alternate method other than a transformer of meeting the criteria of AES48. Plus I hold a patent in the field of class D, and we've engineered a class D amp entirely from scratch... if you have a grasp of engineering principles, you might consider that you mis-stated that. But this is not to denigrate those products.

We might have a semantic issue here. If a circuit is altering the signal other than simple amplification, in my book by definition its introducing a coloration, a veil. As best I can make out you don't use that same definition. FWIW the definition I use is a common ethos in high end audio.

All studio equipment causes a loss of definition- starting at the microphones. Run that thru a mic transformer and you have introduced phase shift due to bandwidth limitations, as well as distortion (transformers have to be loaded properly to prevent ringing, but that isn't the same as saying they make no distortion).

Then the signal proceeds to the mic preamps where more colorations are introduced. Sometimes that is very slight; for example opamps can be used to be very neutral. Even with modern opamps though, you're asking for trouble if you expect more than 20dB of gain out of them due to Gain Bandwidth Product limitations. That is why older opamps tended to have a 'sound'; their GBP was lower.

You can't escape colorations due to distortion. The more blocks you have in the amplification chain, the more distortion you will have. I've heard the old saw about how distortion is 'so low it can't be heard' which is often false. Higher ordered harmonics which are common in solid state gear are easily heard by the ear as brightness and harshness; the ear uses them to sense sound pressure so if any are added the ear attributes that tonality.

So if you have barely a hint of distortion from some upstream source like a mic preamp or mixer, a simple twist of the treble control can enhance harmonic distortion that may have been a lot harder to hear prior to that adjustment.

People often accuse SETs of being 'tone controls' and to a certain degree I think this is correct- I have a pet theory that one reason they became popular was due to the 2nd harmonic they add, which nicely complements the dry sound of digital back in the 1990s when SETs entered the high end scene.

Using an actual tone control or an SET, using a certain WE transformer, a device that adds reverb, compression, limiting, DSP processing and so on is adding coloration and distortion. I don't see how anyone could see it any other way (although I can accept that you might, even though I don't understand it). If I were a manufacturer of such product, I'd probably want to make sure that as my equipment did its job, it did it as cleanly as possible. But its adding coloration no ifs, ands or buts. I just updated one of my Mutron Biphases with new regulation and filter capactors. I also replaced some of the opamps, changed some coupling caps from nonpolar to film, all in an attempt to minimize the 'sound' of its older opamp circuitry, while retaining its famous phase shifting ability. I have this piece rack mounted with my other gear. The reason I did this was so I can add phase shift in post.

I'm not attaching a value here! I've found after 46 years in manufacturing that audiophiles all express their love of music in different ways. Some like to trade gear constantly. Some seek only the first press of LPs. Others have minimal systems, some employ multiple amps and DSP room correction. What is important in my mind is that we all have fun doing what we like to do.

Ralph, I don’t think that you want to go down the road of comparing technical credientials so that line of “if you have a grasp of engineering principles” could get you in deeper waters than you can maneuver pretty quickly.

Regarding electrical circuits, no I do not agree that that a processor has to to be colored and distorted by definition. Without going into a long protracted explanation, I will just check mate you again. Almost all these studio processors have now been converted to digital plug-ins. Most studios do all their processing now ITB (Inside The Box). Are you going to tell me that analog circuits can be more neutral than DSP?

In terms of the hardware that I have discussed and presented, this is state of the art mastering equipment designed around discrete components and not based on Operation Amplifier (OP-Amp) IC’s. Their designers are clever and also want to preserve all the signal quality without degrading it.

I agree with you about SET amplification and cabling being forms of tone-control, and in high-end audio just about everything is. But from a technical perspective, I don’t expect you to align with the myth that by definition sound processors distort and color when that is not the case. Again, I give you the example of HQPLAYER.

I know that you mean well, but this audiophile view of things, specially audio engineering and circuit designs, is short sighted in my view.

I own a Cello Audio Palette MIV that it’s an audiophile favorite. I also own two Weiss 102 digital modular processors, and a GML digital processor that was designed for the finest performance halls in the world. Which of those processors is more neutral?

Take the case of HSE Audio Labs, Weiss or FM Acoustics, all from Switzerland . Their designers design for both the Audiophile high-end audio and professional equipment for the high-end audiophile world. How can you possibly believe that they turn out two different quality of neutrality and performance in their execution? All three of these manufacturers make equalizers and sound processors. Explain to me the differences.

The electrical design tool box is exactly the same for both markets. The mastering world prices their equipment based on development, Bill of Material and production costs, while the audiophile world prices their equipment on what the market will bare. I know that those are generalities but don’t be mistaken, audio engineering is audio engineering and it is no less or no more based on the cost of the end product.

Early in my professional career I did board level electrical designs for NASA‘s space station and space shuttle programs, but I remained in ah as to what the guys at Lexicon and Quantec were doing. Take of the audiophile blinders off and look at the big picture. On a recent project I dealt with state of the art military radar, imaging, and telemetry systems and wow the science and technology that goes into those electronics make high-end audio electronics child’s play.

I’m also about enjoying this audio hobby and having fun, but I don’t fool myself for a minute that there is anything groundbreaking here.
 
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Regarding electrical circuits, no I do not agree that that a processor has to to be colored and distorted by definition.
I'm OK that we disagree. But now you know my position. I don't regard any of this as chess, there is no checkmate possible one way or the other.

I don't have the experience with all this gear that you do, but when we've had digital master files that have had DSP processing that were sent to us for LP mastering. We've found that if we can get the version of the file that is pre-DSP, or a variant that has only normalization, we can cut a better sounding LP. That has been so consistent that I've come to the conclusion that DSP can do damage if not used correctly.

Explain to me the differences.
I did that already and don't care to repeat the process. I am content that you use a different definition of coloration, one of which I was previously unaware. I freely admit that I am shortsighted; my only goal is to get the musical reproduction to be as pure as possible. I've not arrived at the point where more and more processing can somehow achieve that. If I have a recording that is done poorly, I am content in the knowledge that I won't be fixing it.
The mastering world prices their equipment based on development, Bill of Material and production costs, while the audiophile world prices their equipment on what the market will bare.
Actually we've only ever priced our gear to a formula rather than what the market will bear, which is why it tends to be quite a lot less expensive than the equipment with which it easily competes. The latter form of pricing is based on the Veblen Effect, which can be a false perception. I would add to your statement that studio gear often has thinner front panels, if you get my meaning.
I own a Cello Audio Palette MIV that it’s an audiophile favorite. I also own two Weiss 102 digital modular processors, and a GML digital processor that was designed for the finest performance halls in the world. Which of those processors is more neutral?
Having repaired a Cello, I'd be guessing its the least 'neutral' based on what I saw in its internals (it was nicely built FWIW); but again we're talking about using an alternative meaning for the word of which I've no previous awareness.
 
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I'm OK that we disagree. But now you know my position. I don't regard any of this as chess, there is no checkmate possible one way or the other.

I don't have the experience with all this gear that you do, but when we've had digital master files that have had DSP processing that were sent to us for LP mastering. We've found that if we can get the version of the file that is pre-DSP, or a variant that has only normalization, we can cut a better sounding LP. That has been so consistent that I've come to the conclusion that DSP can do damage if not used correctly.


I did that already and don't care to repeat the process. I am content that you use a different definition of coloration, one of which I was previously unaware. I freely admit that I am shortsighted; my only goal is to get the musical reproduction to be as pure as possible. I've not arrived at the point where more and more processing can somehow achieve that. If I have a recording that is done poorly, I am content in the knowledge that I won't be fixing it.

Actually we've only ever priced our gear to a formula rather than what the market will bear, which is why it tends to be quite a lot less expensive than the equipment with which it easily competes. The latter form of pricing is based on the Veblen Effect, which can be a false perception. I would add to your statement that studio gear often has thinner front panels, if you get my meaning.

Having repaired a Cello, I'd be guessing its the least 'neutral' based on what I saw in its internals (it was nicely built FWIW); but again we're talking about using an alternative meaning for the word of which I've no previous awareness.

So let’s focus-in the conversation shall we. Why do you prefer a form of “random and unknown” tone control rather than a “prescribed“ form? I don’t think that I have to explain myself but to be safe: One is the audiophile way of “attempting” to achieve better sound and the other one is the mastering engineer’s way of achieving better sound. Perhaps this discussion will get to the crux of the matter.
 
So let’s focus-in the conversation shall we. Why do you prefer a form of “random and unknown” tone control rather than a “prescribed“ form? I don’t think that I have to explain myself but to be safe: One is the audiophile way of “attempting” to achieve better sound and the other one is the mastering engineer’s way of achieving better sound. Perhaps this discussion will get to the crux of the matter.
As far as I know, I don't do the 'random and unknown' thing- you might be construing me with comments from someone else. I generally rely on measurements to ascertain I'm going the right direction, as predicted mathematically. You may recall that I described the use of an equipment stand?

The thing that a mastering engineer has available to him that you don't seems to be the master file or tape that leads eventually to the media release. Its not exactly apples to apples.

I've run a studio in one form or another since the mid 1970s. I've already described what I do if I run into a problem. And a problems seem be about what most of the equipment you showed is meant to solve. Regardless, I seem to be having a bit of a mental block; I can't seem to get around the issue that if you don't have the master file or tape on tap, that basically all you're doing is modifying whatever media you have to sound the way you want. I've got no problem with that at all, but to me colorations (albeit pleasant ones) are being added. Put another way, you might get a more pleasant sound, is that the same as 'better sound'? Is it somehow truer to the source? If I can get it to be truer to the source, I call that 'better'.

Based on the many conversations I've had with musicians, customers and colleagues over the last 46 years or so, it does seem to me that you really do have to explain yourself. I doubt very much that I'm the only one that doesn't understand how your method is arriving at greater neutrality, although it may sound more pleasant depending on the recording. We seem to have different goals as I alluded earlier.

I used to think about the idea of adding a switch for certain recordings; Westminster and Everest in particular, both of which had a pre-emphasis error in their recordings, which gets off below 100Hz, causing weak bass. If you know what the deficiency is in the recording then you are certainly set up to deal with it.
 
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As far as I know, I don't do the 'random and unknown' thing- you might be construing me with comments from someone else. I generally rely on measurements to ascertain I'm going the right direction, as predicted mathematically. You may recall that I described the use of an equipment stand?

The thing that a mastering engineer has available to him that you don't seems to be the master file or tape that leads eventually to the media release. Its not exactly apples to apples.

I've run a studio in one form or another since the mid 1970s. I've already described what I do if I run into a problem. And a problems seem be about what most of the equipment you showed is meant to solve. Regardless, I seem to be having a bit of a mental block; I can't seem to get around the issue that if you don't have the master file or tape on tap, that basically all you're doing is modifying whatever media you have to sound the way you want. I've got no problem with that at all, but to me colorations (albeit pleasant ones) are being added. Put another way, you might get a more pleasant sound, is that the same as 'better sound'? Is it somehow truer to the source? If I can get it to be truer to the source, I call that 'better'.

Based on the many conversations I've had with musicians, customers and colleagues over the last 46 years or so, it does seem to me that you really do have to explain yourself. I doubt very much that I'm the only one that doesn't understand how your method is arriving at greater neutrality, although it may sound more pleasant depending on the recording. We seem to have different goals as I alluded earlier.

I used to think about the idea of adding a switch for certain recordings; Westminster and Everest in particular, both of which had a pre-emphasis error in their recordings, which gets off below 100Hz, causing weak bass. If you know what the deficiency is in the recording then you are certainly set up to deal with it.

You know, I’m getting tired and bored with this back and forth. I’ll make you a deal, I will shut up and go play with my toys if you can show me how a component or approach is more true to the original and neutral. A few years ago John Atkinson of Stereophile measured the Weiss DAC202 dac, which I own, and he declared it the single most linear/accurate/neutral device that he had ever measured and encountered. How did the audiophile world react to the sound of the Weiss DAC202?

See here’s the deal, there is no such thing as an “absolute sound” and that fleeting oasis is not worth pursuing. The best I will do with my systems is get them to sound in a way that I like and enjoy them. I believe that we do have different goals. It’s time to wake up, put down the kool-aid and believe in this utopia that is not achievable, and for the record no one seems like they are trying to achieve. You as a manufacturer may produce the world’s most linear and neutral instrument but the minute it gets in the hands of the end-user it becomes part of a system. If you advocate something like an all FM Acoustics systems where they manufacture everything other than the source components, even they offer a linearizer.

Look at one of the new posts today, a Magico 2-way electronic crossover was announced, for the small sum of $48,000, and you know that an electronic crossover is a limited “equalizer”. Every crossover is a filter that is tuned. Some are static filters and some are adjustable but they are all filters/ equalizers. You can call it an electronic crossover but it’s a filter and equalizer. So what makes an electronic crossover like the new $48,000 Magico more neutral than a high-end mastering equalizers? Being that they are both different forms of an active filter?
 
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Vague language or loose definitions are an obstacle in this conversation. It's hard to avoid in audio discussions. I believe that a simple clarification might help:

@Carlos269 it seems to me you are describing two related actions.

One is the utility of a variety of mastering tools to shape the sound of the source material.

Second is describing audio 'tweaks' that ( cords, footers, different gear etc. ) can be a random attempt on the part of audiophiles to shape the sound of the system- for all source material.

@Atmasphere seems to be mostly responding to point 2, and @Carlos269 is responding to both. imho...

I would suggest these two topics be addressed specifically and not folded together.
 
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If you have a good set of heads, a 1/2" machine running 15ips can do 26KHz. 30 IPS can do better than that, although bass is a problem. I agree that if there is a rolloff, tape can be one of the reasons however. A few dubs down the road is all it takes!

The Plangent Process captures the bias freq. from the tape. What is the bias freq. now...?? 60kHz - 400kHz..... !!

 
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One last thing. Yes there is an "absolute sound." The absolute sound is the original performance. Now what we want is to be accurate or neutral to the original performance in the reproduction. Have we been able to that? No. Will ever. Who knows?
The best we have been able to do is recreate a pleasant illusion.
 
The absolute sound is the original performance.

Which is different for everyone who attended and was present at the original performance, depending on their location at the performance, hearing acuity, and distance from the sound sources. Even the recording engineer is typically monitoring the performance on headphones from the recording console feed. Even the musicians do not share a common experience of the sound. The “absolute Sound” just doesn’t exist, it is unique to everyone and each of us. Is that too big of a thought or an idea for you to comprehend? Even if we were standing or sitting side by side, how do you know that I heard what you heard or that you heard what I heard?????? Ever heard of HRTF? Head Related Transfer Function? Not sure if even identical twins share identical hearing. Are you walking around with my head and ears? Do we share identical sensory systems based on our different age and experiences in life? Should I go on????? “Absolute“ is a very powerful descriptor that should no used haphazardly.
 
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