Entreq for Dummies

[Speedskater]

The 'Shinpong' post seems to be a random list of phrases, some from engineering text books and some from the writing's of people who don't have a good grasp of electrical theory.

But the major confusion in threads like this one comes from the words 'ground or earth'. These words have several meaning and often it's not at all clear which meaning applies.

Some of the more likely meanings for 'ground/earth' are:

a] a connection or path to Mother Earth.
b] a connection or path (Safety Ground/Protective Earth) to the power company Neutral.
c] a chassis connection to the Safety Ground/Protective Earth conductor.
d] the audio circuit/power supply common.
e] a shield connection to a chassis.

We should note that while all these are galvanically connected, each one has a different task.

We should also note that neither Mother Earth nor a large box will act as a sump or sink for leakage currents or noise currents.
As both leakage currents or noise currents are only interested in getting back to their voltage sources, which in both cases is the power company Neutral.

 

[Barry2013]

just know it makes your music reproduction sound better...don't get bogged down in the electrical theory details...

+1

 

[Jazzhead]

just know it makes your music reproduction sound better...don't get bogged down in the electrical theory details...

++1

 

[jap]

just know it makes your music reproduction sound better...don't get bogged down in the electrical theory details...

PeterA and Ian,

Just know as Shinpong said:

"I hope this can give some idea why Entreq ground box could help although you guy might already have good grounding system through your wall socket."

I guess I must already have good grounding system through my wall socket, because a Silver Tellus and Apollo cables did not produce a positive effect in my system.

 

[Barry2013]

PeterA and Ian,

Just know as Shinpong said:

"I hope this can give some idea why Entreq ground box could help although you guy might already have good grounding system through your wall socket."

I guess I must already have good grounding system through my wall socket, because a Silver Tellus and Apollo cables did not produce a positive effect in my system.

OK Jap at least you tried it and it did not work in your system and it is entirely valid for you to report that just as I and others have reported our positive experiences.
I can't help wondering though what your system comprises. I am not trying to hassle you in any way just really curious.

 

[jap]

OK Jap at least you tried it and it did not work in your system and it is entirely valid for you to report that just as I and others have reported our positive experiences.
I can't help wondering though what your system comprises. I am not trying to hassle you in any way just really curious.

First, my username is jap with a small "j."

I'm so glad you approve of my posting about my Entreq experience.

Since I have dedicated 20 amp outlets in my listening room with Furutech GTX outlets, I really wasn't expecting the Entreq grounding box and cables to do anything, so I wasn't disappointed.

Knowing what the rest of my system comprises isn't important. IMO, if you feed any properly designed component with clean power with good grounding, the Entreq products aren't needed.

 

[PeterA]

First, my username is jap with a small "j."

I'm so glad you approve of my posting about my Entreq experience.

Since I have dedicated 20 amp outlets in my listening room with Furutech GTX outlets, I really wasn't expecting the Entreq grounding box and cables to do anything, so I wasn't disappointed.

Knowing what the rest of my system comprises isn't important. IMO, if you feed any properly designed component with clean power with good grounding, the Entreq products aren't needed.

jap, Thank you for posting your experience. I'm interested that you did not notice a benefit. I too have dedicated 20 amp circuits. Three in total. One to each mono block amp and one to my front end components. The three 15' JPS Labs in-wall AC cables each go directly from a breaker in the panel through a hole in the listening room floor and are terminated in Furutech IEC connections plugged directly into my components. In this way I am able to bypass all outlets and extra connections. I have no hum issues whatsoever.

I am open to the possibility that an Entreq like device could improve things further, but I have not yet had the opportunity to experiment.

 

[MadFloyd]

There is so much hyperbole for so many things, I really appreciate it when someone has the honesty to say that a given product produced no discernable positive effect in their system.

 

[rockitman]

There is so much hyperbole for so many things, I really appreciate it when someone has the honesty to say that a given product produced no discernable positive effect in their system.

Believe me, jap's experience is an anomaly at best....we don't even know what his system is comprised of ? (No context). If you like to push the reproduction envelope, you need to try Entreq signal plane grounding....it is as simple as that. No hyperbole from my perspective.....then again, you liked the sound of the xp30 better than the reference xs....I like the sound of the xs better than the xp. Ymmv.

 

[jap]

Believe me, jap's experience is an anomaly at best....we don't even know what his system is comprised of ? (No context). If you like to push the reproduction envelope, you need to try Entreq signal plane grounding....it is as simple as that. No hyperbole from my perspective.....then again, you liked the sound of the xp30 better than the reference xs....I like the sound of the xs better than the xp. Ymmv.

Christian,

I PMd's my system details to you months ago.

Just because I think the Entreq products don't make any improvement in my system, doesn't make it an "anomaly at best."

If you want to spend $10K plus on this stuff fine.

I've got better things to do with my audio investments.

BTW, anyone that can't make better grounding cables than the Apollo or Atlantis for a faction of their cost, shouldn't do any complicated like operating a moving vehicle.

 

[audioblazer]

jap, maybe u can tell us how to build a ground cable better than Atlantis & at a fraction of its cost . Better still build some & sell it to us

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ooh, make stuff cheaper in the high end? Cables? Where have I heard this before? How do we all feel about Troy ground leads that stretch to $4k a throw, and Dalby ones that go North of £10k?
Re Entreq not making a difference, there are quite a few posts of implementations that don't work, including from me (the person who initiated the original Entreq thread). While many incl Barry and Rockitman have extolled Atlantis leads I found that they didn't float my boat. I don't ever see anything other than 110% praise that Troy ALWAYS works.
Re the purpose of this thread to shed light on how Entreq works, de facto to justify it's consideration/implementation/cost, I don't think there are any explanations to be had. My system incorporates a radial main from a dedicated consumer unit and a beast of an 8kVA balanced power transformer, and Entreq still proceeds to help transform the sound.
I'm convinced Entreq works at gremlins produced by the components, not the electric coming out of the wall. If Entreq is helping siphon off these gremlins from circulating around the system, it's done it's job in preventing delicate psus's being loaded. Etc etc.
Oh, and btw I've just applied Entreq to a new set of amps I'm usiing, and yes it's improving things. Again.

 

[LL21]

...I'm convinced Entreq works at gremlins produced by the components, not the electric coming out of the wall. If Entreq is helping siphon off these gremlins from circulating around the system, it's done it's job in preventing delicate psus's being loaded. Etc etc.
Oh, and btw I've just applied Entreq to a new set of amps I'm usiing, and yes it's improving things. Again.

good point...we have a dedicated line for the system as well, 4 outlets, and i have still found significant benefit from the Troy and Entreq equipment, as did MikeL who i believe pretty much has a dedicated HOUSE for his system!

I respect when others did not find benefit. Regarding DIY cables, i have heard a few from audiophile friends...i even have heard a trial grounding cable from a professional cable manufacturer...they did not compare well with the Atlantis i had and i politely returned them. That does not mean it cannot be done easily...it just means if professional cable manufacturers with loads of professional reviews, cable of the year awards, etc cannot get it quite right, then i probably wont bother trying. Just happy to listen to the music.

 

[Barry2013]

First, my username is jap with a small "j."

I'm so glad you approve of my posting about my Entreq experience.

Since I have dedicated 20 amp outlets in my listening room with Furutech GTX outlets, I really wasn't expecting the Entreq grounding box and cables to do anything, so I wasn't disappointed.

Knowing what the rest of my system comprises isn't important. IMO, if you feed any properly designed component with clean power with good grounding, the Entreq products aren't needed.

Thank you for your response jap.
It is not for me to approve or disapprove of your earlier post and I was doing neither. It was a simple acknowledgement that people can and should report their experiences for the benefit of others.
In my case I have an excellent mains supply serving residential domestic users and an Audience Aspect AR8 passive power conditioner. My voltage stays constantly in the 233- 237 range.
The Entreq ground boxes when I first tried one produced an immediately audible improvement which further improved with subseqent upgrades including Entreq cables.
That has been my experience which I have been happy to share with other members in our joint pursuit for the best possible sound.

 

[Speedskater]

jap, maybe u can tell us how to build a ground cable better than Atlantis & at a fraction of its cost .......................

While I'm not 'jap', I can tell you how to build a grounding conductor at a fraction of the price.

"grounding conductors" are sometimes covered in the papers and books of Henry W. Ott, Jim Brown, Bill Whitlock and Bruno Putzeys while writing on other subjects. However Ralph Morrison in his book "Grounding and Shielding in Facilities" goes further in depth in the sections on STGP and ZSRG.
STGP = Signal Transport Ground Plane
ZSRG = Zero Signal Reference Grid
And Keith Armstrong adds details in this article:
Fundamentals of EMC Design: Our Products Are Trying To Help Us

Author : Keith Armstrong, Cherry Clough Consultants
Author E-mail : keith.armstrong@cherryclough.com
04/03/2012
- See more at: http://www.interferencetechnology.c...are-trying-to-help-us-3/#sthash.MhkjcpPn.dpuf

**********************************
Moving on:

We know that a flat conductor works better that a round conductor of the same cross-section area at high frequencies.

a]So we could get some RG-8 coax at the Radio Shack close-out sale #278-1312. Clamp the center conductor and it's insulation in a vise and pull the copper braid ed shield and the outer insulation off. Then manually flatten the hollow cable. 20 years ago we did this on industrial products.

b]We could buy flexible braided grounding straps. see Keith Armstrong figure 13.
example at http://www.electrical-insulators-and-copper-ground-bars.com/flexbrsd.html

c]We could buy rigid copper grounding straps.
example at http://www.gacopper.com/

d]We could take 4 stranded 14AWG wires and devise a way to keep them flat together. like OOOO

e]We could take several different sized coax cables then dis-assemble them for the braided shields and place the shields inside one another.
Bruno Putzeys writes:
" Take a coaxial cable, take the jacket (sheath) off and dress it in a number of extra layers of shield salvaged from other cables."

 

[spiritofmusic]

Great stuff Speedskater. Maybe you can then proceed to tell us all how to make audiophile cables retailing for $1k, $10k, etc etc, for a fraction of the cost too. I'm not being sarcastic, I really do feel the tricks of the high priced crowd should be laid bare.
Have you investigated the Troy and Dalby ground cables which retail for $4k and $10k respectively? If Entreq is to be criticised by inference at prices of $500-$1k for ground cables, what do we make of those exalted prices?

 

[audioblazer]

While I'm not 'jap', I can tell you how to build a grounding conductor at a fraction of the price.

"grounding conductors" are sometimes covered in the papers and books of Henry W. Ott, Jim Brown, Bill Whitlock and Bruno Putzeys while writing on other subjects. However Ralph Morrison in his book "Grounding and Shielding in Facilities" goes further in depth in the sections on STGP and ZSRG.
STGP = Signal Transport Ground Plane
ZSRG = Zero Signal Reference Grid
And Keith Armstrong adds details in this article:
Fundamentals of EMC Design: Our Products Are Trying To Help Us

Author : Keith Armstrong, Cherry Clough Consultants
Author E-mail : keith.armstrong@cherryclough.com
04/03/2012
- See more at: http://www.interferencetechnology.c...are-trying-to-help-us-3/#sthash.MhkjcpPn.dpuf

**********************************
Moving on:

We know that a flat conductor works better that a round conductor of the same cross-section area at high frequencies.

a]So we could get some RG-8 coax at the Radio Shack close-out sale #278-1312. Clamp the center conductor and it's insulation in a vise and pull the copper braid ed shield and the outer insulation off. Then manually flatten the hollow cable. 20 years ago we did this on industrial products.

b]We could buy flexible braided grounding straps. see Keith Armstrong figure 13.
example at http://www.electrical-insulators-and-copper-ground-bars.com/flexbrsd.html

c]We could buy rigid copper grounding straps.
example at http://www.gacopper.com/

d]We could take 4 stranded 14AWG wires and devise a way to keep them flat together. like OOOO

e]We could take several different sized coax cables then dis-assemble them for the braided shields and place the shields inside one another.
Bruno Putzeys writes:
" Take a coaxial cable, take the jacket (sheath) off and dress it in a number of extra layers of shield salvaged from other cables."

The issue is not whether we can build a ground cable but can we build a much better cable than Atlantis at a fraction of its price . Why spend so much money on Atlantis if we can get a much cheaper ground cable. For that matter if anybody can build a more effective Entreq Tellus or Tripoints for a fraction of its price , I would be interested to buy a few

 

[jap]

Kevin,

Thanks for the info about the flat grounding cables.

I don't know if you've seen the Entreq Apollo (1.65m RCA to Spade - $849.) and Atlantis (1.65m RCA to Spade - $1639.) grounding cables.

They use round solid core silver cable around 15-18AWG. Single run in the Apollo, double in the Atlantis.

Here's a picture of the Apollo:



As you can see, the end that connects to the grounding box is just bare wire bent into the shape of a spade.

I don't think your wire recommendations are Exotic enough for Entreq users, so here an alternate recipe using your flat conductor suggestion:

Wire- DUELUND 2.0 Silver Foil & Silk-Oil. (approximating a 16 AWG wire). It has two layers of silk, "which allows DUELUND to achieve better oil impregnation into the silk, which in turn gets more moisture to be "drawn" to the cable. This increases the wire's anti-static properties. The result is clearly better tonal presentation, depth of image, soundstage etc."

RCA Connector- Silver Eichmann or the Keith Louis Eichmann designed KLEI Silver Harmony

Spade- Oyaide silver spade like Tripoint uses on their grounding cables.

Material cost to make a single run 1.65m cable - $190., double run - $340.

 

[bonzo75]

A material cost of 340 translates to a RRP of 3400

 

[Speedskater]

referencing post #38:

The only thing that silver brings to the table over a one AWG size larger copper conductor is lots more money.

A round conductor is just plain not as good as a flat conductor.

A 15-18AWG conductor is way too small. Think 8AWG or a range of 4AWG to 11AWG.