Entreq Tellus grounding

[Maril555]

Maril, I have not heard the Powers or Cleanus that were the subject of the review you mention. But, as far as the Silver Tellus is concerned, in my system it did not round the attack or warm the sound or eliminate any excess brightness (which I did not have to start with). What it did in my system was to help the individual instrumental and vocal image stand against the background, separate from each other, while at the same time enhancing the differentiation (and hence the trueness) of timbres. In addition, the soundstage is greatly expanded. The musical presentation has become more vivid, acquiring a closer-to-lifelike energy, not more rounded or warmer.

Edit: If at all, I would say that, in my system, the ground box has impacted the decay of the notes more than the attack.

It is interesting- Rockitman did notice some "warming and relaxing" and you didn't, both only using Silver Tellus.
The conclusion from this very small sample maybe, that said effects are system dependent.
Like you said, your system wasn't bright to begin with, hence Silver Tellus hasn't produce any"warming" as a byproduct of cleaning ground noises and artifacts.
And did so in the Rockitman system.
I guess signal ground- related distortions produce various audible effects in different systems- could be a constriction of sound stage in one system, excessive brightness and stridency in other, etc.
Then, when the ground related problem is cleared by Tellus, the final results vary as well.
Some of the grounding effects are fairly uniform throughout a variety of systems though.
The interesting part for me from reading Polish review on the Entreq website was, that all the improvements and changes the reviewer observed, were only using Entreq power products, and not grounding.

 

[dmnc02]

It is interesting- Rockitman did notice some "warming and relaxing" and you didn't, both only using Silver Tellus.
The conclusion from this very small sample maybe, that said effects are system dependent.
Like you said, your system wasn't bright to begin with, hence Silver Tellus hasn't produce any"warming" as a byproduct of cleaning ground noises and artifacts.
And did so in the Rockitman system.
I guess signal ground- related distortions produce various audible effects in different systems- could be a constriction of sound stage in one system, excessive brightness and stridency in other, etc.
Then, when the ground related problem is cleared by Tellus, the final results vary as well.
Some of the grounding effects are fairly uniform throughout a variety of systems though.
The interesting part for me from reading Polish review on the Entreq website was, that all the improvements and changes the reviewer observed, were only using Entreq power products, and not grounding.

You are familiar with my system, so you can judge whether or not my statement that it did not have any spurious brightness to start with is a fair one. I also think that the review you are referring to is the one that has the comment by the Polish distributor at the end stating that the rounded attack and warming noticed by the reviewer was likely due to the improper placement of the AC wraps and Lynx feet.

 

[Orb]

Orb,

Just a quick post to remember that some solutions for a "safety disconnect network " described in your post can be illegal in some countries when used in domestic equipment.

Hmm, the article goes into depth regarding the safety aspect of safety ground.
Basically the quote I provided before by gootee sums up a lot of what is in the diyaudio article (such as how isolating-linking reference signal ground to chassis-safety ground), from what I remember.

Edit: just quoting their basic rules from end of article:

Rule 1: Each of the following must be connected to the system star ground by one and only one route.
All signal references
All power commons
Shields of non-galvanically isolated single-ended inputs and outputs
Safety ground and chassis. The safety ground and chassis should be thought of as a single entity.
The connection may be direct, or indirect through a star-of-stars or buss. This is expanded upon below.
The safety ground and chassis may be connected to the system star ground through a Safety Loop Breaker Circuit.
The “one and only one” part of this rule precludes ground loops. There is no excuse for a ground loop within a single component.

Rule 2: The shield of a balanced input or output (XLR pin 1) must be connected to the chassis at or as close as is possible to the connector.

Rule 3: The shield of a single-ended input or output that is not galvanically isolated must be directly connected to the system star ground.

The shield is the signal reference in the cable

Rule 4: Any circuit associated with an input or output that is not galvanically isolated must have its signal reference directly connected to the system star ground.

Rule 5: The mains safety ground must be directly connected to the chassis.

rom IEC 60950, “The wire is terminated with a closed loop connector which is fixed to the earthing stud or screw with a star or lock washer and a nut. Other parts of the product that need to be earthed are connected by closed loop connectors to the same stud and locked with an additional nut. It is important that the earth wire from the power supply cord is located at the bottom of the stud and locked with its own nut. The earthing stud must not be used for any purpose other than earthing. It cannot be used, for example, for the mechanical fixing of parts other than the earth conductors. Its mechanical structure must also be such that it cannot be loosened from outside the device. For example, it cannot be a post fixed with a screw from outside the product.”

Rule 6: Each signal reference must be directly connected to its power reference.

That is, no circuit may have its signal reference connected to its power common through another circuit’s signal reference or power common. This rule allows for a star-of-stars with the signal reference and power common directly connected together in a star and that star connected to the system star (either directly or through a buss).

Rule 7: Circuits may be grouped together with their signal references forming a buss.

The order of the grouping is not arbitrary. Just as the signal is routed along, stage to stage, the associated signal reference can be routed with the signal between stages. Keep the signal and its associated signal reference electrically close together; they should be treated as a pair. This minimizes the risk of noise being injected into the signal reference.

One end of the buss should be connected to the system star ground, either directly or by a star of stars.

If you mean the safety loop breaker then yeah although he says "may" and also in the article goes at length regarding grounding considerations.
Difficult to write an article for various countries, but maybe that could be made clearer in the article somewhere and yeah good point and agreed *shrug*.

Cheers
Orb

 

[rockitman]

It is interesting- Rockitman did notice some "warming and relaxing" and you didn't, both only using Silver Tellus.
The conclusion from this very small sample maybe, that said effects are system dependent.
Like you said, your system wasn't bright to begin with, hence Silver Tellus hasn't produce any"warming" as a byproduct of cleaning ground noises and artifacts.
And did so in the Rockitman system.
I guess signal ground- related distortions produce various audible effects in different systems- could be a constriction of sound stage in one system, excessive brightness and stridency in other, etc.
Then, when the ground related problem is cleared by Tellus, the final results vary as well.
Some of the grounding effects are fairly uniform throughout a variety of systems though.
The interesting part for me from reading Polish review on the Entreq website was, that all the improvements and changes the reviewer observed, were only using Entreq power products, and not grounding.

I'm not sure warming or rounding/rolling is how I would describe the effect. Relaxing a bit maybe in the sense of strong leading edge transients in the treble region not glaring or going over the edge a bit. Same thing with sibilant recordings. I notice this effect especially on large Orchestral stuff from RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence which are far more enjoyable listening with Entreq than without.

PS: I think my post was taken out of context regarding rounding and warming....I said: I experience a lot of what you describe That does not mean all that you describe....it is easy to take descriptive adjectives out of context when describing subjective audio effects.

 

[Joe Pittman]

Suggest you read this thread and the posts by Atmasphere (Ralph):
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1376746239&openflup&26&4#26


*Please explain.


BTW, if ultra short signal paths are better, why aren't you advising Entreq users to use shorter grounding cables than Entreq's standard 1.65m?

mauidan, I'm just speculating that in addition to lowering the noise floor, Entreq Signal Grounding may improve system coherency.

To explain, I find most systems could be more coherent, ie: not everything is working as a whole, things are slightly out of focus. This is usually symptomatic of one or more underlying problems and can be difficult to fix. I’m speculating that Entreq Signal Grounding results in improved system coherency simply by providing a more consistent, high quality, high capacity ground where noise is shunted to ground “faster”. Every “Entreq’d” component should help to improve focus. Coherency for me is related to time distortion/time smear.

Other posts are also pointing out that noise is reduced by filtering EMI/RFI, and I couldn't agree more. Especially with the ever increasing EMI/RFI deluge from WiFi, Cell Towers, SMPS, etc.

It looks like Entreq products improve the system in multiple ways; by reducing the noise floor, by reducing time smear, by reducing broadband noise, and possibly more ways. All by using a passive “do no harm” technology, which I prefer to active solutions (ie: in-line filters).

Much of what we are trying to do in our quest is first to uncover, identify and define problems, the bottleneck’s to performance. When we clearly understand the problems we can try and solve them. One of the posts in the thread you referred me to in the AudiogoN Forum calls products like Entreq as creating a paradigm shift. I would say that it is not so much a paradigm shift but more of a realization of the importance of Signal and Power Grounding. This is really a new category here in the US potentially as important as Resonance Control. Looks like the guys in the UK are way ahead of us on this…

Regarding, cable lengths, I would have the shortest cables I could get by with, and I have been overly zealous about this in the past. But we need to be practical and have the ability to site ground boxes where we can and accommodate changes over time. I think the standard Eartha cable length of 1.65m is reasonable. The difference in improvement of going to a 0.5m cable would likely be imperceptible. I suspect what is more significant is cable dressing. Typically a signal cable should be far away from power cables, never run in parallel (or at least 2” away), cross cables at right angles, avoid placing cables on the floor (if the cables are sensitive to electrostatic fields), and proximity to high EMI/RFI sources like transformers and SMPS, etc.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Regarding, cable lengths, I would have the shortest cables I could get by with, and I have been overly zealous about this in the past.

Joe,

I would be very careful about this aspect. Unless the manufacturer advises to change the length I would keep it as recommended. I would expect them to optimize the cable for this specific length for this special purpose.

 

[Joe Pittman]

Joe,

I would be very careful about this aspect. Unless the manufacturer advises to change the length I would keep it as recommended. I would expect them to optimize the cable for this specific length for this special purpose.

Yes microstrip, I agree. Any competent cable manufacturer should optimizes each cable length produced, it matters. And I never recommend modifying (shortening) cables yourself ulnless your are willing to live with the consequences. Entreq will make cable lengths to order at additional cost. Some people will need longer length cables to accommodate their system requirements.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Looking fwd to next, and final, round of Entreq grounding upgrades, prob in Jan/Feb. I've made a decision to have a fairly limited budget, otherwise I'll spiral into an OCD sea of continual tweaks.
I'm going to audition a second S. Tellus and compare it against a one-terminal Olympos Minimus. And try a Cleanus alongside. So Option A will be to ground the two Apollos from my dual mono line stage into the Olympos Minimus, and the remaining 6 (w/out Cleanus) or 7 (w/Cleanus) Apollos into the S. Tellus. Option B will be to run two S. Tellus', both sharing the 8-9 (again, w/ and w/out Cleanus) Apollos.
The UK rep is bullish that the Olympos Minimus will be a game changer w/my dual mono line stage. I can't divulge any tech info, still fairly hush hush, but Olympos is going to be far more than just a S. Tellus/Atlantis hybrid box, there is a lot more going on, and it will really optimise one component grounding. And hence Option A may win out. And that Cleanus will bring a lot to the table.
But after my less than impressive experience w/Atlantis Tellus box, we're not predicting anything w/100% confidence.
Whatever combination of second S. Tellus &/or Olympos Minimus &/or Cleanus I end up with, will be my stepping off point (i.e. no Atlantis leads, no Atlantis Tellus, no Wraps etc).

 

[bonzo75]

Looking fwd to next, and final, round of Entreq grounding upgrades, prob in Jan/Feb. I've made a decision to have a fairly limited budget, otherwise I'll spiral into an OCD sea of continual tweaks.
I'm going to audition a second S. Tellus and compare it against a one-terminal Olympos Minimus. And try a Cleanus alongside. So Option A will be to ground the two Apollos from my dual mono line stage into the Olympos Minimus, and the remaining 6 (w/out Cleanus) or 7 (w/Cleanus) Apollos into the S. Tellus. Option B will be to run two S. Tellus', both sharing the 8-9 (again, w/ and w/out Cleanus) Apollos.
The UK rep is bullish that the Olympos Minimus will be a game changer w/my dual mono line stage. I can't divulge any tech info, still fairly hush hush, but Olympos is going to be far more than just a S. Tellus/Atlantis hybrid box, there is a lot more going on, and it will really optimise one component grounding. And hence Option A may win out. And that Cleanus will bring a lot to the table.
But after my less than impressive experience w/Atlantis Tellus box, we're not predicting anything w/100% confidence.
Whatever combination of second S. Tellus &/or Olympos Minimus &/or Cleanus I end up with, will be my stepping off point (i.e. no Atlantis leads, no Atlantis Tellus, no Wraps etc).

Your 'limited budget' seems to have an upper limit that keeps rising

 

[spiritofmusic]

Point taken, Ked. Atm I'm running a S. Tellus (£1650) and 6 Apollo leads (£400 each, £2400 total). I'm looking at adding a couple more Apollos when my Zu Def4 sub amp modules return modded w/ground posts to enable connection to the S. Tellus, so £800 more. Then I'm looking at either another S. Tellus OR Olympos Minimus, i.e. another £1650, and maybe a S. Cleanus/Apollo (£2000/£400), i.e. a total extra expenditure of c£5k. W/my balanced transformer/dedicated consumer unit/radial main of £5500, and prev expenditure of £4500 on Burmester 948 conditioner, my power grid/grounding/conditioning shopping bill will equate to c£19k in the final analysis. But I could maxx out on Entreq w/4 S. Tellus/4 Atlantis Tellus'/Atlantis Powerus'/2 Atlantis Cleanus', upgrade Apollo to Atlantis leads, two dozen Atlantis leads in total, and a whole slew of Entreq Wraps/Receivus', and shell out another £30k-£40k+ over time.
£19k is serious cash in anyone's estimation, but I still contend it is VFM re system wide impvts wrought as a result. But that is my fill, I need to show self discipline is spending cash ever more carefully after this stage.

 

[bonzo75]

£19k is serious cash in anyone's estimation, but I still contend it is VFM re system wide impvts wrought as a result. But that is my fill, I need to show self discipline is spending cash ever more carefully after this stage.

I bet. It's much more than your speakers, to start with

 

[spiritofmusic]

Actually, no gentlemen, about the same w/the two mods I've done to my Zu Def4s. Ked, when you get me a reasonable budget for top quality spkrs/amps for a 14 channel system w/top quality a-d-d-a convertor so I don't compromise my analog, and Keith you get me a reasonable budget for the construction of the totally new room you inhabit the Liszts in, I think you'll find the budget you need to spend maxxes out well beyond the £20k I've spent on power/grounding/conditioning :b.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, no gentlemen, about the same w/the two mods I've done to my Zu Def4s. Ked, when you get me a reasonable budget for top quality spkrs/amps for a 14 channel system w/top quality a-d-d-a convertor so I don't compromise my analog, and Keith you get me a reasonable budget for the construction of the totally new room you inhabit the Liszts in, I think you'll find the budget you need to spend maxxes out well beyond the £20k I've spent on power/grounding/conditioning :b.

Even SOTA analog is already compromised as compared to that system. You also don't need a reasonable budget for the room. His room was a trashy 7m * 3m dump. It is not far from you, you just need to go and look why he is producing a sound much better than yours (or mine) with a much lower noise floor, in a much smaller room. And for 13.4 B&W speakers in the used market, the budget is less than 19k, and so it is for the Datasat RS20i as well.

 

[1kitch]

Its been almost a year since I have had the Entreq and Troy in my system and thought I would share my two cents and lessons learned since my previous post. The most significant aspect I learned is that the cable is a critical item and tantamount to performance, and although I have two apollo cables I never was succesful in being able to exceed the soundstage and performance of the basic copper cable which I initially started off with. The two apollos along with seven copper cables (I initially was attempting to ground everything) and two tripoint cables currently reside on a shelf for trial and error testing purposes but the current configuration of one copper (RCA/S) to the preamp (two cables to preamp didn't work) running to the entreq (which I could easily live with by itself) along with two tripoint cables running from the amp grounds and connected to the troy greatly surpassed any other interconnecting/combination I tried. As such, the current configuration is only three cables being run and I couldn't be happier with the performance. As others have stated, it is important to not have the cables lying on the floor, in contact with interconnects or power cables, or even touching the equipment chasis when being run to the Entreq or Troy, and I try to use a RCA jack on the preamp closest to the Entreq for the ground cable run to minimize proximity to any interconnect running to the preamp, as well. Mixing cable types (copper and silver) as well as having multiple cables running to a single ground post poduced mixed results but in general did not perform well. I also, removed extraneous grounds to the house electrical grounding system (i.e. running to the ground rods...which are very easy and cheap to install by the way) which were no longer required (yes it does make a difference). I also attempted to ground my equipment racks which did produce a noticeable change but ultimately went back to the configuration where I am at now. All in all I could not be happier with the grounding products, but do have to caution about cable selection, as surprisingly more expensive is not always better, although I would like to give a RCA Konstantin and Challenger cable a try at some point. It could be that my system doesn't like silver cables to the entreq box, not sure, but I am glad I started with a copper cable and didn't go with an apollo as first planned or I never would have know that the basic introductory copper cable was better in my system.

 

[rockitman]

Its been almost a year since I have had the Entreq and Troy in my system and thought I would share my two cents and lessons learned since my previous post. The most significant aspect I learned is that the cable is a critical item and tantamount to performance, and although I have two apollo cables I never was succesful in being able to exceed the soundstage and performance of the basic copper cable which I initially started off with. The two apollos along with seven copper cables (I initially was attempting to ground everything) and two tripoint cables currently reside on a shelf for trial and error testing purposes but the current configuration of one copper (RCA/S) to the preamp (two cables to preamp didn't work) running to the entreq (which I could easily live with by itself) along with two tripoint cables running from the amp grounds and connected to the troy greatly surpassed any other interconnecting/combination I tried. As such, the current configuration is only three cables being run and I couldn't be happier with the performance. As others have stated, it is important to not have the cables lying on the floor, in contact with interconnects or power cables, or even touching the equipment chasis when being run to the Entreq or Troy, and I try to use a RCA jack on the preamp closest to the Entreq for the ground cable run to minimize proximity to any interconnect running to the preamp, as well. Mixing cable types (copper and silver) as well as having multiple cables running to a single ground post poduced mixed results but in general did not perform well. I also, removed extraneous grounds to the house electrical grounding system (i.e. running to the ground rods...which are very easy and cheap to install by the way) which were no longer required (yes it does make a difference). I also attempted to ground my equipment racks which did produce a noticeable change but ultimately went back to the configuration where I am at now. All in all I could not be happier with the grounding products, but do have to caution about cable selection, as surprisingly more expensive is not always better, although I would like to give a RCA Konstantin and Challenger cable a try at some point. It could be that my system doesn't like silver cables to the entreq box, not sure, but I am glad I started with a copper cable and didn't go with an apollo as first planned or I never would have know that the basic introductory copper cable was better in my system.

Thank you for your feedback. It would be helpful if you could share the brand/model of your amps and preamp....as this stuff doesn't work the same for all brands/models it appears due to different treatment of earth and signal grounds in their respective circuitry.

 

[mauidan]

Thank you for your feedback. It would be helpful if you could share the brand/model of your amps and preamp....as this stuff doesn't work the same for all brands/models it appears due to different treatment of earth and signal grounds in their respective circuitry.

He has his equipment listed in this profile.

 

[rockitman]

He has his equipment listed in this profile.

Thanks...I ask for this info to create some data points..

in this case:
Arc 40th Anniversary Preamp
Lamm ML 2.1

 

[microstrip]

Thanks...I ask for this info to create some data points..

in this case:
Arc 40th Anniversary Preamp
Lamm ML 2.1

Christian,

Are you listing them to force me to try the Entreq products?

 

[rockitman]

Christian,

Are you listing them to force me to try the Entreq products?

you owe yourself at least a demo and decide from there....

 

[dmnc02]

Thank you for your feedback. It would be helpful if you could share the brand/model of your amps and preamp....as this stuff doesn't work the same for all brands/models it appears due to different treatment of earth and signal grounds in their respective circuitry.

One interesting observation (at least for me) is that 1kitch's ARC REF40 line stage is a dual-mono design very similar to my REF10, and yet he prefers using a single ground cable, while I strongly prefer using two. Individual preferences might be at play, or perhaps the cables selection is affected as much by the system as a whole as by the specific components on which they are being used.