I am not worried about the expectation bias. I am only interested in sound improvement to my tastes. There is no credible measure of "sound improvement."
Entreq Tellus grounding
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
- Start date
I am not worried about the expectation bias. I am only interested in sound improvement to my tastes. There is no credible measure of "sound improvement."
The Entreg ground cables may look huge, but internal wire gauge is small.
Suggest you check out:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?16910-Entreq-for-Dummies
"CheryJosie" only a very few posters in this thread understand just what it's all about. Many of the posters think that it's the magic substance in the box that absorbs the bad electricity. While in truth a simple heavy copper terminal strip/bus bar would do the job better.
As for the science & engineering, Ralph Morrison and Keith Armstrong cover it well. see my post:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15012-Tripoint-Audio-new-top-model-grounding-device&p=280913&viewfull=1#post280913
For a more technical discussion on this type of box, see thread:
"Tripoint Audio - new top model grounding device"
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ounding-device&p=280760&viewfull=1#post280760
start at post #51 then through post #79
***************************************
In this thread, start at post #800 through #876
As for the science & engineering, Ralph Morrison and Keith Armstrong cover it well. see my post:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15012-Tripoint-Audio-new-top-model-grounding-device&p=280913&viewfull=1#post280913
For a more technical discussion on this type of box, see thread:
"Tripoint Audio - new top model grounding device"
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ounding-device&p=280760&viewfull=1#post280760
start at post #51 then through post #79
***************************************
In this thread, start at post #800 through #876
Whether or not the proposed benefit of the Entreq boxes is scientifically established, benefits of room acoustic treatments and flouride in children (a separate issue from flouridation) are very well grounded in science and pretty well "proven", whatever that means. Back to the topic at hand.
Speedskater that is going on about safety earth-chassis ground rather than signal reference ground.
In a product there will be some sort of capacitor/resistor-double diode bridge solution to isolate the two, agree they do still have to connect-tie for safety.
I like the idea of both Tripoint and Entreg (ok this is more of a concept without further information) for different reasons and I see them in theory being complimentary while focusing on different aspects.
Thanks
Orb
In a product there will be some sort of capacitor/resistor-double diode bridge solution to isolate the two, agree they do still have to connect-tie for safety.
I like the idea of both Tripoint and Entreg (ok this is more of a concept without further information) for different reasons and I see them in theory being complimentary while focusing on different aspects.
Thanks
Orb
Thanks for that, now I am back in familiar territory.
Currents travel in loops. They cannot be absorbed by a box of stuff.
The only way to separate a noise signal from the signal ground is to re-route the noise through a lower impedance path back to its source or use electrical isolation.
Routing the noise through a box of stuff does nothing that I am aware of. What is the stuff for? Solid metal is the best room-temperature conductor that I know of.
The issue is not whether or not the ground is adequate. The issue is whether or not the signal ground is contaminated by stray currents that always take the 'shortest' path back home.
OK so it can be a challenge to figure out how to mix and match components without causing issues. A simple bus bar and as-short-as-possible cabling is all that is needed to re-route the noise currents away from the signal grounds interconnect, that and some skill, some luck, and a toolbox, with maybe isolation device here and there.
A box of stuff is not going to create an earth ground inside your home theater. Can you imagine NASA budgeting rocket fuel to lift a box of stuff into orbit? Laughed out of the room...
I suppose if there is some training and debug provided, the system might actually improve things, but not because of big boxes of stuff IMO. It would be from re-mapping the grounding topology.
Especially with no theory of operation forthcoming from the vendor... of any of these competing products...
Maybe the high price tag is to discourage anyone from ripping out the functioning bus bar and throwing away that beautiful box of useless stuff it sits inside?
I could be all wrong about this but nothing about this product gives me the warm fuzzies.
Most of the time I do not care about measurements.
Sometimes measurements give wrong info. Long time ago we measured the Amplifiers on the basis of frequency response (20Hz to 20KHz), all the concerned amplifiers had same frequency response but all of them sounded different from each other.
I start by the assumption which the better measure I can make is testing the items by myself into my system.
I have Entreq Silver Minimus with Atlantis ground cable (which I use fo Alpha USB converter), Silver Tellus with Apollo ground cable (which I sue for Totaldac Reclocker) and Olympus with Atlantis ground cable (which I use with Totaldac D1 Dual DAC).
One of the main difference on settings is the use of appropriate cables.
Talking about Entreq, it seems which more the signal is "digital" more the cable has to be thin (respecting the inherent material, i.e. copper or silver).
I am waiting for one Apollo cable to test it for the USB converter, which is now connected through one Atlantis.
I made same test with the Reclocker (compared Atlantis with Apollo) and the result was: with Atlantis the medium/high frequencies was too dark.
Sometimes measurements give wrong info. Long time ago we measured the Amplifiers on the basis of frequency response (20Hz to 20KHz), all the concerned amplifiers had same frequency response but all of them sounded different from each other.
I start by the assumption which the better measure I can make is testing the items by myself into my system.
I have Entreq Silver Minimus with Atlantis ground cable (which I use fo Alpha USB converter), Silver Tellus with Apollo ground cable (which I sue for Totaldac Reclocker) and Olympus with Atlantis ground cable (which I use with Totaldac D1 Dual DAC).
One of the main difference on settings is the use of appropriate cables.
Talking about Entreq, it seems which more the signal is "digital" more the cable has to be thin (respecting the inherent material, i.e. copper or silver).
I am waiting for one Apollo cable to test it for the USB converter, which is now connected through one Atlantis.
I made same test with the Reclocker (compared Atlantis with Apollo) and the result was: with Atlantis the medium/high frequencies was too dark.
Josie,
Unbalanced RCA for audio as I mentioned though is flawed in this concept (shield carrying both noise and ground currents), so I assume this is not something you agree with.
While no longer recommended by AES, some professional cabling companies (meaning they originally work in the pro world rather than consumers) offer to only terminate the return path-shield at one end for their RCA-unbalanced cable.
Anyway can we agree this is not a chassis ground solution and in theory could have the lowest noise-Signal 0V reference interference.
You say
Regarding reducing noise, how is noise converted to heat?
The box can be a kind of filter (not saying it is as I agree in principle with a lot you say, and we do not have enough information regarding the Entreq solution-"architecture").
I guess we should also approach this from the context of the diverse range of audio components and the various way topology and stages are implemented by manufacturers and also by models; I doubt it is ideal implementation across a listener's whole system.
Thanks
Orb
Unbalanced RCA for audio as I mentioned though is flawed in this concept (shield carrying both noise and ground currents), so I assume this is not something you agree with.
While no longer recommended by AES, some professional cabling companies (meaning they originally work in the pro world rather than consumers) offer to only terminate the return path-shield at one end for their RCA-unbalanced cable.
Anyway can we agree this is not a chassis ground solution and in theory could have the lowest noise-Signal 0V reference interference.
You say
But how do you this for three interconnected but separate products while still safely (emphasising this point as I agree if done wrong would be illegal) isolating or partially isolating signal ground from chassis ground; CD Player, Preamp, power amp; in other words do we start going the route of Entreq (bearing in mind we are talking specifically their RCA and not chassis or safety ground solution)
Regarding reducing noise, how is noise converted to heat?
The box can be a kind of filter (not saying it is as I agree in principle with a lot you say, and we do not have enough information regarding the Entreq solution-"architecture").
I guess we should also approach this from the context of the diverse range of audio components and the various way topology and stages are implemented by manufacturers and also by models; I doubt it is ideal implementation across a listener's whole system.
Thanks
Orb
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Well in a word :: no.
What Neil Muncy, Ralph Morrison, Henry Ott and Jim Brown write about is signal.
I don't know about Josie, but yes, unbalanced RCA is a flawed concept.
The AES and the pro audio world have little interest in RCA-unbalanced cables.
This quickly becomes a balanced/differential interconnect system.
We should also note, that if you connect ground box cables to unused, insulated RCA chassis connectors, you have created a great interference antenna.
You do it by following the teachings of What Neil Muncy, Ralph Morrison, Henry Ott and Jim Brown.
That's one of the ways that electricity works. (remember that impedance thing?)
If the box does act as a filter, which I doubt, then it's converting the noise to heat.
While I have no idea what is in these products either, you may want to refer back to your text books and look up how ferrite functions and look at what they are made from. Furthermore, you seem to conflate ground currents with RFI that may be present on the ground plane. As others have pointed out, "grounds" and "ground planes" are relative and there can be more than one in any group of interconnected components.
Your OP seemed to be a sincere interest in learning and understanding. So I am not sure how your comments that drip with condescension and ridicule are constructive? Are these products you are interest in or is this simple curiosity on your part? Or if your intention is to promote ABX/DT as the sole methodoly for selecting entertainment products - you will have a tough road to hoe.
If you would like to continue with this discussion it would be helpful to the less classically trained engineers in crowd in what products you are involved in designing. Are you a lead designer or member of a team? Do you have a specific area of expertise? This may help the engineers here to contextualize their responses to your questions.
I was commenting about the Tripoint link, not sure how it can do signal ground when it uses mains but sorry if I misunderstand their product.....
The other picture reminds me of a Signal Reference Grid?
Glad we agree about unbalanced RCA, and I think I am more in alignment with you than you know in principle but personally keeping an open mind to the concept for the Entreq solution, difficult to call it an architecture or even a solution when do not know everything about it and someone needs to test-analyse it further if all the discussion in this thread are to go further, but it still could be working (and way setup I tend to feel it quite possible).Speedskater said:
Well it does interest them because they made a recommendation regarding unbalanced cables as a correction to the implementation of terminating shield only at source end to overcome issues.
The pro world is interested because there are cable manufacturers that focused on the pro workd initially or combine that and consumer these days; Mogami/etc all do unbalanced RCA, with Van den Hul still offering single side terminated cables for shield only to source (although goes against AES recommendations).
I did mention RCA only, and it possibly only matters for true balanced stages and components (where I am like you wondering how it might work but keeping an open mind - they still have unbalanced connection).Speedskater said:
Unfortunately the RCA inputs are all active in this context (0V signal ground reference) so not sure what you mean by antenna caused by this solution.
If it was causing antenna related issues this would had been noticed very quickly by many owners in causing a detrimental effect, rather than the reduction in noise that seems to be the trend of subjective listeners with music.
Nothing said so far has actually touched on implementing this in an audio unbalanced system involving multiple components connected with RCA and with the signal ground not directly connected to chassis ground (by this I mean some isolation that does not break the health rules such as using diode bridge among others I touched upon earlier).speedskater said:
I agree it is slightly unusual (please note I am not defending Entreq but I think some are jumping to sceptical conclusions) in creating the external 0v signal input star ground/return path that way but it is safe and may work.
Agreed that is my point in response to Josie and unfortunately we cannot say if it is also acting as a filter or not, I was tempted to mention ferrite but someone probably would had pointed out how when used as a collar it also reflects noise and not just converts it to heatspeedskater said:
I think we are all going round in circles
Caelin says it best IMO.
Cheers
Orb
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It only works as an interference antenna when there is nearby interference. But sometimes audiophiles prefer signals with a little bit of background noise or interference, it seems to add definition or sparkle.Unfortunately the RCA inputs are all active in this context (0V signal ground reference) so not sure what you mean by antenna caused by this solution.
If it was causing antenna related issues this would had been noticed very quickly by many owners in causing a detrimental effect, rather than the reduction in noise that seems to be the trend of subjective listeners with music.
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Agreed that is my point in response to Josie and unfortunately we cannot say if it is also acting as a filter or not, I was tempted to mention ferrite but someone probably would had pointed out how when used as a collar it also reflects noise and not just converts it to heat
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I think we are all going round in circles
Caelin says it best IMO.
Cheers
Orb
As to interference antennas and just how ferrites work, Jim Brown past AES committee chair on EMI/RFI and a Ham radio operator has an excellent 66 page paper. (just skip the Ham parts).
RFI, Ferrites, and Common Mode Chokes For Hams
The basis of this tutorial is a combination of my engineering education, 55 years in ham radio, my
work as vice-chair of the AES Standards Committee working group on EMC, and extensive research
on RFI in the pro audio world where I’ve made my living.
Chapter 1 – Some Fundamentals
To solve interference problems, we must understand them. So we'll begin by describing the ways
that RF interference is coupled into equipment and detected. There are several principal mechanisms
at work.
Antenna Action
The most fundamental cause of radio interference to other systems is the fact that
the wiring for those systems, both inside and outside the box, are antennas. We may call them
"patch cables" or "speaker cables" or "video cables" or "Ethernet cables," or printed circuit traces,
but Mother Nature knows that they are antennas! And Mother Nature always wins the argument.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
Synergistic Research – Grounding Block:
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/featured/new-product-synergistic-research-grounding-block/
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/featured/new-product-synergistic-research-grounding-block/
If you are talking to me then yes they are classified as home entertainment products. Are the products you resell medical or military grade products? Are we parsing words and product classification?
And what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?
Ah come on please do not try to rationalise that it is increasing noise and creating subjective quality improvement sigh.
And so there is not an actual answer to the antenna interference with regards to my specific point, that all the RCA inputs on say a preamp are active with regards to the reference ground and the ideal of creating a "clean" (ok we are not sure exactly how Entreq works) input star ground/return path applied to all components connected.
TBH interference is near enough guaranteed in this day and age with the WLAN bandwidth that is also used for microwaves,wireless doorbells,bluetooth,microwaves,other transmission technologies more related to broadcasting, let alone from close proximity mains and other cables.
In the past I linked the recentish BBC research into EMI/RFI and how the house these days is one big antenna and critically transmitter.
I think we should move on from Hams and transmitters and focus specifically on audio, they are not exactly the same.
Unfortunately I think we are going to disagree on this subject, and yeah I can understand interference after being involved with telecoms for many years, and audio is more akin to older telecoms that had less immunity to such influences.
That said, I agree RCA cables will act more like an antenna and hence the issue of as I said earlier the cable is carrying noise and ground currents on the shield, so without a "solution" like Entreq you actually have worst noise associated this way (this is subtly separate to mains related noise as the signal ground is fully or partially isolated for this reason from chassis ground).....
In fact it is fair to say the input itself is behaving slightly like an antenna, isn't that one of the reason short/suppression caps are provided for XLR?
Not applicable to all products but some are influenced, and this comes back to my point that most listeners system in some way is probably not ideal in terms of implemented topology-stages-circuitry and the number of active components interconnected, somewhere there may be a slight compromise.
Cheers
Orb
You seem to assume much and know very little. I am an advocate of blind tests, sighted tests and scientific measurements. But keep digging the hole.
Not a rationalization, when real differences are heard between cables, my first thought is background noise or interference. An audiophile's preference may not be for the quieter cable.
You understand the problem, but that's not the solution. Maybe that Jim Brown paper was too much. How about a simpler Power Point?
RF Interference in Audio Systems
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/AES-RFI-SF08.pdf
While I don't know what TBH interference is, I will say that any new purchase that plugs into an AC outlet has the potential to generate interference. But different types of interference require very different solutions.
Not one big antenna, many small antennas. Any cable, be it power, interconnect, speaker or control has the potential to be a interference antenna.
The external noise problems are often very similar. The big difference is that Hams use good troubleshooting procedures to solve problems. They also have test equipment to measure the frequency & amplitude of the problem and of attempted solutions.
Back in olden times, interference was very different than it is now.
The Entreq is not a good solution. Note that there is no protocol for troubleshooting with a Entreq. Many users in this thread have listed their random trials, but no knowledge is gained.
Yes it hard to make a perfectly symmetrical balanced interconnect system. But that has nothing to do with grounding.
Yes, at any price point there are many poorly designed components.
