Eh?
Your the one in the past who argued well built interconnect cables have no influence on sound
Unfortunately for such a test signal ground is isolated from the power supply.
Cheers
Orb
Entreq Tellus grounding
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
- Start date
Eh?
Your the one in the past who argued well built interconnect cables have no influence on sound
Unfortunately for such a test signal ground is isolated from the power supply.
Cheers
Orb
Go with it Keith. No disrespect, I've never seen any industry professional/dealer spend so much time on a forum dissing others' spending choices. You must be highly confused that people are just so dumb. Just like people would look at you saying there's no difference in your boutique coffee versus stuff out of a jar. In fact your devotion to an expensive coffee machine is the proof that you're as subjective as the rest of us. Lovely stuff, truth be told, but how? Not actually better than cheap value jars.
I don't see any perfectly measuring stuff ever having set the world alight - Halcro and YG are amongst the best measuring gear yet I bet you wouldn't touch them, Yamaha receivers from the 70s were superlative on specs alone, ATC spkrs bow to none on paper. If it was measurements alone, why the Hell do you even sell a tt?
Of course two unidentified people agree w/you. Natch. Did you do the blinded trial w/them? Or are they reporting a simple a-b? If so, according to yr criteria, the experience is as bogus as the ones that turn out positive. There's no way you're doing the blinded trial y'self, you have no patience, and importantly no humility to see if you might be wrong.
If you worked in the medical field, you would be whipping up anti complementary therapy sentiment w/skeptic websites and blogs, and getting people into a right lather.
No, you've ended up in the audio world where subjectivism runs wild, people have cash, and emotional feedback is all, and tbh very few are joining you in your tbh sad anti subjectivist tirade.
Good luck in the good fight, but as we all move twds losing our hearing, I think you'll be marching alone to your own flag.
I'd rather be in Hell w/the subjectivist sinners, than in heaven w/you and your priggish attitudes.
I don't see any perfectly measuring stuff ever having set the world alight - Halcro and YG are amongst the best measuring gear yet I bet you wouldn't touch them, Yamaha receivers from the 70s were superlative on specs alone, ATC spkrs bow to none on paper. If it was measurements alone, why the Hell do you even sell a tt?
Of course two unidentified people agree w/you. Natch. Did you do the blinded trial w/them? Or are they reporting a simple a-b? If so, according to yr criteria, the experience is as bogus as the ones that turn out positive. There's no way you're doing the blinded trial y'self, you have no patience, and importantly no humility to see if you might be wrong.
If you worked in the medical field, you would be whipping up anti complementary therapy sentiment w/skeptic websites and blogs, and getting people into a right lather.
No, you've ended up in the audio world where subjectivism runs wild, people have cash, and emotional feedback is all, and tbh very few are joining you in your tbh sad anti subjectivist tirade.
Good luck in the good fight, but as we all move twds losing our hearing, I think you'll be marching alone to your own flag.
I'd rather be in Hell w/the subjectivist sinners, than in heaven w/you and your priggish attitudes.
Well, at least you admitted today signal cables and grounding boxes can sound somewhat different. One more year and we will train you on power cables
Very few people buy signal cables from salespeople. And such placebo examples are flawed because buying decisions are not made in one sitting, there are multiple comparisons that go on over days and in different systems and with different competing components
Can you explain us how VDH carbon cables roll off treble? The ones I own have a typical resistance of 35 ohm/m - I measured them. Used with a typical input having around 100 pF capacitance, they have a roll off in the MHz zone.
BTW, how do you define technically "properly designed internal regulation"?
Attachments
Don't make it too tough on him. He is learning from us here. One step at a time
one of the best things about our hobby, is the possibility to test new items according to a guidance plan of a project matching our tastes.
I discovered Entreq through this forum.
It is so clear for me the differences (positive and negatives sometimes for my taste) generated since the introduction of the boxes (Silver Tellus and Olympus), which I have no doubt concerning the modification that grounding box and associated cables can make.
I've tried different ground cables and each of these makes a difference. Atlantis cable is too much draining for digital signals, best is Apollo cable (at least in my system).
Atlantis cable is fantastic for my preamplifier part of DAC, as well as for my Spectral amplifier.
Nothing better to test it and I do not understand why you, Keith, you have not done a test in order to get your personal opinion supported by real direct test and not from theories.
I discovered Entreq through this forum.
It is so clear for me the differences (positive and negatives sometimes for my taste) generated since the introduction of the boxes (Silver Tellus and Olympus), which I have no doubt concerning the modification that grounding box and associated cables can make.
I've tried different ground cables and each of these makes a difference. Atlantis cable is too much draining for digital signals, best is Apollo cable (at least in my system).
Atlantis cable is fantastic for my preamplifier part of DAC, as well as for my Spectral amplifier.
Nothing better to test it and I do not understand why you, Keith, you have not done a test in order to get your personal opinion supported by real direct test and not from theories.
I notice you take the very extreme examples Keith rather than the norm, the reality is more complex and nuanced than that.
Cheers
Orb
That is NOT what I asked and you know it, this is just an excuse not to objectively try it in predefined scenario-setups.
As I mentioned before I do not think the maker of this product can technically explain what is happening or even that well his objective and scope, but it still may be having an influence that may be unexpected.
Anyway objectively, one should ignore manufacturers' rationale and test/audition products in an objective way (subjectively setting up and using audio equipment that touches on what has been discussed so far).
As your trying to be objective, you will now I am sure get these products in to listen to in various system component setups
Cheers
Orb
Ah but what do you mean "normal" parameters?
Going by your posts on mains cables what Shunyata does must be wrong even though they provide measurements with their scope and focus - so now we have a contradiction unless your saying their measurements and approach has no meaning objectively (but then you need to technically show why they are wrong).
Normal parameters seems to be deliberately vague Keith and tbh there is no such thing as normal parameters that applies to all aspects of audio or home environment that help to identify-analyse in detail and conclusively, and seems you keep ignoring what some of us ask or point out to you.
One example I assume of normal parameters was your post 1423 with the mains supply but that is too simplistic an analysis as signal ground has not relation to the internal power supply.
In post 1425 you said
But then you ignore how I provided clear examples of accepted engineer audio manufacturers that make external PSU to add to their products and even cables including mains, in fact I pointed out that you sell some of those yourself (appreciate in your case it is not mains cables but interconnects/data cable they make) such as with the Weiss or M2TechPurite Audio said:
So by your logic you are selling an inferior product that is improved with external supplies and even offer their own cables, and you should not be selling those PSUs or cables unless I am sure you measured them for improvements to the audio component (but that is not possible because the products have properly designed internal regulation/spec you say).
And additionally I assume you would say Naim are poor engineers or scamming because of the benefits their external PSU?
Anyway this is distracting away (especially as Entreq should not necessarily be associated with mains-power supply) from my post that your not being objective and using excuses not to bother testing/auditioning the Entreq in predetermined scenario-setups, while also reaching conclusions on debatable assumptions.
Furthermore using extreme measurement cases as you did with those specific cable manufacturers and then applying it as a conclusive proof is seriously wrong and biased.
Cheers
Orb
Ah screw it I give in with this thread, maybe it should be locked as it does feel Keith is arguing for the sake of arguing and not even making an effort in responding to the posts-thread context and details while ignoring other aspects raised by various posters.
Cheers
Orb
Cheers
Orb
Last edited:
While it's not very common, mains power cables can affect the sound quality. It will be situation specific, a combination of bad things causing an increase in noise or interference. It can be a challenge for blind testing or in the past measuring, because just changing cables or adding test equipment altered the situation. Now wide-band, battery powered O-scopes and Voltmeters can examine the noise and interference at the speaker terminals. Another test would be to use a battery powered music recorder and then examine the recording with a program like old Cool Edit Pro.
The go-to expert on noise and interference is Jim Brown. He was past AES committee vice-chair EMI/RFI interference and he is a Ham radio operator.
This paper is a good start in understanding some of the problems (skip the sections directed to Hams)
"A Ham's Guide to RFI, Ferrites, Baluns, and Audio Interfacing"
by Jim Brown K9YC
Audio Systems Group, Inc.
Chapter 1 – Some Fundamentals
To solve interference problems, we must understand them. So we'll begin by describing the ways
that RF interference is coupled into equipment and detected. There are several principal mechanisms
at work.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
About 50 more excellent Jim Brown papers are available at:
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
******************************
Bill Whitlock also has some papers on power line noise.
I just saw the great post by 'twest820' about this type of problem. It was in another forum, in a thread about a DIY chip amp kit.
Quote:
This is most likely because you believe a power cord will make a difference. I don't.
Now now, retreat into subjectivism doesn't always mean there isn't a valid engineering issue to address. Just usually.
Most every time I do the maths on green wire loops formed between typical audio components I get common mode error terms 40 or 50dB down from signal for reasonable grounding practice. These are easily moved below subjectively audible levels with most any pseudodifferential or balanced connection. But there's abundant subjective evidence and endless fussing with ground lifts to indicate the 0dB CMRR of unbalanced connections keeps errors in the audible range even in more or less ideal circumstances. Since the loops are formed by power cords, mains wiring, component chassis, connectors, and interconnect shields it follows power cord impedance influences the voltage distribution around the loop. By how much depends on the specific loop structure but generally it's significant as the total power cord impedance in parallel with the interconnect is comparable to that of the interconnect.
There's also abundant evidence the ~40dB CMRR provided by a basic balanced implementation is insufficient for inaudibility in mildly inclement conditions such as not the greatest grounding, mains circuit to mains circuit spans, or not so great audio component implementations. Hence the market for DI boxes and other fix its approaching 100dB CMRR. Usually that much is overkill but maintaining input signal integrity is one reason why the Mod and Parallel, as high end builds, use THAT 1200s.
twest820
Quote:
This is most likely because you believe a power cord will make a difference. I don't.
Now now, retreat into subjectivism doesn't always mean there isn't a valid engineering issue to address. Just usually.
Most every time I do the maths on green wire loops formed between typical audio components I get common mode error terms 40 or 50dB down from signal for reasonable grounding practice. These are easily moved below subjectively audible levels with most any pseudodifferential or balanced connection. But there's abundant subjective evidence and endless fussing with ground lifts to indicate the 0dB CMRR of unbalanced connections keeps errors in the audible range even in more or less ideal circumstances. Since the loops are formed by power cords, mains wiring, component chassis, connectors, and interconnect shields it follows power cord impedance influences the voltage distribution around the loop. By how much depends on the specific loop structure but generally it's significant as the total power cord impedance in parallel with the interconnect is comparable to that of the interconnect.
There's also abundant evidence the ~40dB CMRR provided by a basic balanced implementation is insufficient for inaudibility in mildly inclement conditions such as not the greatest grounding, mains circuit to mains circuit spans, or not so great audio component implementations. Hence the market for DI boxes and other fix its approaching 100dB CMRR. Usually that much is overkill but maintaining input signal integrity is one reason why the Mod and Parallel, as high end builds, use THAT 1200s.
twest820
What is puzzling, is that how many people fall into the same trap of Purite nonsensical arguments over and over again.
It's been proven quite a number of times in this very forum, that he has very little objective data to substantiate ANY of his
ridiculous claims.
All he has to offer is a WRONG opinions.
So his posts should be treated, as such.
This thread has become is so sterile and boring. I ask myself if I could mesure boredom it would high in the scale. Purite and the people trying to argue with him transformed an interesting thread that spoke about sound of the Entreq, associations, way of getting a better sound..,etc in an endless and useless diatrib. All that coming from someone that never heard the Entreq... I thought this hobby was about sound ?
I give up.
I give up.
Well said...this thread has been infected by blind objectivists...the worst virus in this hobby.
Dude,
You have repeated this phrase 700 times by now. I feel, everyone here got it after the first 25?
Got anything else to contribute?
And you also confused about the purpose of this forum, which is NOT to prove anything to you personally.
People share experiences here.
