Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable arrives; G1X Master Clock coming.

[PeterA]

But carlos the speed regulation will keep the speed / platter rotation always exactly the same i assume .

You want me to believe that placing the motor slighltly further from the platter thus increasing the gap will have influence on the sound ,(assuming the speed control will always keep the rotation speed exactly the same)
This seems highly unlikely to me , your talking a 19 kg rotating mass

I am sure it will affect the sound. Read my comments about my own turntable experiments where the speed stays the same but other factors change and the sound changes.

Remember, Esoteric designed it for adjustment. Why would they do that If they didn’t want to for fine tuning the sound. This is stated in Technical Highlights item #3 from the Esoteric literature you posted above.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Remember, Esoteric designed it for adjustment. Why would they do that If they didn’t want to for fine tuning the sound.

Adjustability/ Marketing .
Lets say they are the first in the audiophile market to have this system / it looks cool .
You can differentiate yourself as a brand in this way , time will tell if its a real advantage
There is also a certain speaker brand which has a lot of adjustability it looks great too

 

[Carlos269]

This Esoteric turntable uses digital signal (external clock can be added) to control motor and to control drive current (even if it's digitally processed still in analog waveform). As a result motor's revolution and platter's rotation is continuous like any other turntable which has a non digitally controlled motor.

So you are saying that the magnetic induction is no different than any other platter rotation mechanism. Interesting. You obviously do not understand the magnetic element of the drive unit involved here and the impulse response induced on the platter.

Close or further, platter speed will be about the same (if you don't move it out of magnetic flux effective area). The difference is the application time of speed corrections induced by motor to the platter. When it's close it will be applied in a short time cause there is more magnetic attraction. When it's far it will be applied in a longer time. This will result as a relaxation effect on sound or vice versa.

You are stating the obvious here in that the speed needs to be maintained at 33.3 revolutions per minute. I have already explained in my response to Peter, in a far more elegant way I must say, how the proximity of the drive unit to the platter might affect the sound. It sound like you are reading from a marketing leaflet here and again writing a lot but not saying much. Let’s keep going.

 

[PeterA]

Adjustability/ Marketing .
Lets say they are the first in the audiophile market to have this system / it looks cool .
You can differentiate yourself as a brand in this way , time will tell if its a real advantage
There is also a certain speaker brand which has a lot of adjustability it looks great too

The adjustments to Wilson speaker pods affect the sound. Why would they not on this turntable? I have shared my results of belt to thread and tension experiments. Of course adjusting the gap here will alter the influence of the drive unit over the platter and perhaps visa versa. Whether Mike appreciates that affect at the listening seat will be determined.

 

[Carlos269]

Thank you very much Carlos. This is more or less what I suspected. I would also think the greater the inertia of the platter from a more massive platter and/or lower friction bearing, would require less direct connection to the driving motor. In this case, the gap between the two could be increased, reducing the effect of the drive unit and should result in smoother rotational consistency.

Peter, in linear motion, Force equals M*A and in this case of rotational motion, Torque equals I * a where I is the Moment of Inertia and alpha is angular acceleration. The moment of inertia is simply the mass times the radius squared: I=m*r^2.

As you can see from the equation above, the greater the mass the less perturbations there will be when steady state rotation is achieved. Greater mass helps but you need to consider the break over point of getting the mass moving and the time it takes to reach the target velocity.

 

[morricab]

I dont know mike i m not a expert on this small delicate stuff .
The biggest SKF spherical roller thrust bearings i usually work with are 1600 mm in diameter

I m curious if you can hear a difference in sound though if you put the motor closer or further.

Esoteric


View attachment 107348

As Carlos mentioned, the drop off of force from the magnets with distance affects the coupling strength between the motor and platter. Stronger coupling will be more motor centric control and weaker coupling probably a more platter mass/inertia centric speed control.

 

[mtemur]

So you are saying that the magnetic induction is no different than any other platter rotation mechanism. Interesting. You obviously do not understand the magnetic element of the drive unit involved here and the impulse response induced on the platter.

You chose not to understand anything I wrote . Great. Read again.

This Esoteric turntable uses digital signal processing (external clock can be added) to control motor and to control drive current (even if it's digitally processed still in analog waveform). As a result motor's revolution and platter's rotation is continuous like any other turntable which has a non digitally controlled motor.

Did you understand from my comment that "magnetic drive is same with other drive methods" or "There is no difference between drive methods" Is that what it means? Really?

In my comment I clearly indicated that platter rotates continuously. Waveform of the rotation is in analogue like any other turntable regardless of motor control electronics whether using digital or analog signal. If you choose to understand "platter rotates continuously" as "all platters rotates the same" I can not help you.

Another example for you: If I say all relatively good turntables rotate precisely at 33.3rpm will you take it as if I said there is no difference between platter drive mechanisms?

I have already explained in my response to Peter, in a far more elegant way I must say,

So did Esoteric company representative and other people. He did it in Munich last year. Check Michael Fremer's coverage. Do you think only you know the details of magnetic coupling between pulley and platter?

BTW elegant is not the word that pops in my mind when you described the effect as analogous. Does it turn into digital when motor moves closer to the platter? What does the word analogue describe about the sound anyway? Does it mean smooth, relaxed? I've listened many digital sources that sound smooth, relaxed and tonally right and I also listened many analog sources that sound aggressive, harsh and etched. Obviously you haven't.

 

[Carlos269]

You chose not to understand anything I wrote . Great. Read again.

Did you understand from my comment that "magnetic drive is same with other drive methods" or "There is no difference between drive methods" Is that what it means? Really?

In that comment it's clearly indicated that platter rotates continuously. Waveform of the rotation is in analogue like any other turntable regardless of motor control electronics using digital or analog signal. If you choose to understand "platter rotates continiously" all platters rotates the same I can not help you.

Another example for you: If I say all relatively good turntables rotates at 33.3rpm will you take it as if I said there is no difference between platter rotation mechanisms?


So did Esoteric company representative and other people. He did it in Munich last year. Check Michael Fremer's coverage. Do you think only you know the details of magnetic coupling between pulley and platter?

BTW elegant is not word that pops in my mind when you described the effect as analogous. Does it turn out to digital when motor moves closer to the platter? What does the word analogue describe about the sound anyway? Does it mean smooth, relaxed? I've listened many digital sources sound smooth, relaxed and tonally right and I also listened many analog sources sound aggressive, harsh and etched. Obviously you haven't.

It is obvious that I’m speaking over your head. I made an assumption that you were technically in the ball park since you say that you ran FFT and I didn’t have to spell everything out for you, but here obviously I was wrong. You are parroting stuff you heard at Munich and on Michael Fremer videos.

As far as me having listened to many sources, I will let someone else clue you in. You wouldn’t believe the equipment and amout of equipment that I have heard even if I told you, it is hard even for me to believe some times; good thing there is a bit of a record of it.

 

[microstrip]

(...) By the way, this is similar to adjusting string tension in your system.

In some aspects it is also similar to adjusting the voltage in a synchronous motor - it has perceptible effects in belt driven turntables and most of the time is ignored.

 

[mtemur]

It is obvious that I’m speaking over your head. I made an assumption that you were technically in the ball park since you say that you ran FFT and I didn’t have to spell everything out for you, but here obviously I was wrong. You are parroting stuff you heard at Munich and on Michael Fremer videos.

How do you know I'm parroting without knowing me and my background?

As far as me having listened to many sources, I will let someone else clue you in. You wouldn’t believe the equipment and amout of equipment that I have heard even if I told you, it is hard even for me to believe some times; good thing there is a bit of a record of it.

LoL. Try me I'm an easy believer.

 

[Kingrex]

Per the comments about the motor being closer or further. In layman terms are you saying something to the following.
If the motor control were to pulse 100 times per second, the closer the motor to the platter, the more the platter would respond to each little pulse. The further the motor from the platter, the less the platter would maybe jump forward per each pulse. So it may seem more smooth with the motor further and who knows closer.

 

[mtemur]

It is obvious that I’m speaking over your head. I made an assumption that you were technically in the ball park since you say that you ran FFT and I didn’t have to spell everything out for you, but here obviously I was wrong.

A significant indicator of being cornered is to start attacking in a rude way. I don't know if you're capable or not but you haven't answered any of my questions.

 

[Carlos269]

A significant indicator of being cornered is to start attacking in a rude way. I don't know if you're capable or not but you haven't answered any of my questions.

Lol You think that you have me “cornered”, please elaborate and specify which questions I have not answered.

You are a funny guy. Bring it it on.

 

[Carlos269]

A significant indicator of being cornered is to start attacking in a rude way. I don't know if you're capable or not but you haven't answered any of my questions.

I’m hanging around to respond to you but you seem to have gone radio silent! Let me know when you want to engage. You must be off to doing your research.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Per the comments about the motor being closer or further. In layman terms are you saying something to the following.
If the motor control were to pulse 100 times per second, the closer the motor to the platter, the more the platter would respond to each little pulse. The further the motor from the platter, the less the platter would maybe jump forward per each pulse. So it may seem more smooth with the motor further and who knows closer.

in my brief efforts at adjusting the torque dial, my sense was that the sound did soften as i dialed it 'out' and the sound 'tightened' or 'hardened' as i dialed it closer. i got zero pulsing, this sound perception was in degrees of musical rhythm intensity. this was not a huge degree of effect, but noticeable. the smoothness does not vary, just the rhythmic intensity. but maybe the sense of musical flow changes.

and as the T1 is the most energetic and lively turntable i have heard, you can really hear the dense grainless horn tone, the piano sustain, the complete absence of anything sounding swimmy or warbly. if there is any actual pulsing occurring, it is not audible. and as hard as i push things, you would hear it if it was happening.

i suspect that the platter, bearing, and motor are tuned for the inertia of the platter to be balanced as to the magnetized motor head action to eliminate any pulsing. maybe if something went amiss and the system got out of balance then we might see some pulsing artifacts intrude on the performance.

today i had a visitor (a local friend and WBF member) who requested some Lee Morgan and Freddie Hubbard, so we did about 45 minutes of quite intense horns; which were 100% dead solid perfect.....not a tiny wart....anywhere.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't doubt any of what your saying Mike. And I don't know if these motors have a pulse. If there were to be one, my though was that the perception of it would be more the softening of the music when the motor was pulled further away. But its only a musing as to how it may all work. Its a super interesting design.

 

[morricab]

I am sure it will affect the sound. Read my comments about my own turntable experiments where the speed stays the same but other factors change and the sound changes.

Remember, Esoteric designed it for adjustment. Why would they do that If they didn’t want to for fine tuning the sound. This is stated in Technical Highlights item #3 from the Esoteric literature you posted above.

The speed probably is changing but less than your tools can measure.

 

[tima]

Close or further, platter speed will be about the same (if you don't move it out of magnetic flux effective area). The difference is the application time of speed corrections induced by motor to the platter. When it's close it will be applied in a short time cause there is more magnetic attraction. When it's far it will be applied in a longer time. This will result as a relaxation effect on sound or vice versa.

I'm trying to follow your discussion with Mike and Carlos. Maybe it is mentioned but this is the first I've read of speed correction and what you refer to as "the application time of speed corrections". I'm guessing the latter refers to the time between the detection of a need for correction and the correction instruction being issued. There is also the question of the number of corrections that can be issued in a given amount of time.

How do you believe speed monitoring is done -- what is monitored and what is the frequency of that monitoring, that is how many data points are gathered in what amount of time? I don't expect we have that last piece of information unless Esoteric discloses it.

I'm guessing (?) that the distance of the magnetic rotor to the platter and the ensuing torque adjustment and effect are mostly separate from the issue of speed control.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The speed probably is changing but less than your tools can measure.

Not according to Esoteric

 

[morricab]

Not according to Esoteric

View attachment 107365

You can’t be serious….never mind the fact I was referring to Peter’s string tightness on his own TT observations. If the TT turned absolutely perfectly, there would not be a need for an external clock (referring to the Esoteric TT). Why would you take marketing material at face value? I thought you were an engineer??!!