Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable arrives; G1X Master Clock coming.

[tima]

If the T1 TT is not accurately measuring the platter speed (ideally at 33 1/3 rpm assuming the records being played have also been cut at this precise speed....(another topic for discussion), then adding / bolting on motors with very expensive and accurate speed monitoring and operation becomes in a way academic ! If this is the case with the T1 then for me it is a flawed design, no matter how accurate the platter motor itself is at spinning at a constant 33 1/3rpm !

For such an expensive turntable with such a relatively high technology in operating platter motor speed, Esoteric should also have included a relatively high technology and possibly brand new method in directly measuring the actual platter speed for their T1 (as Grand Prix Audio have done on their TTs !) even if it meant the price of the TT going up say another US$20k for one if not the most important parameter for a TT to produce. Esoteric could have also introduced new technology in accurately measuring and monitoring the actual TT platter speed with a patent for this (as they did for their magnetic platter motor drive system).

Also using magnets for the platter drive system as the T1 does, may also possibly have an influence on the sound with the possibility that the cartridge may be picking up magnetic waves / electromagnetic forces being emitted from the T1's platter & motor drive system with a proportion that could be projecting towards the cartridge ?

As for changing the distance between the motor and the platter, maybe Esoteric included this feature to 'dial in' the platter speed to run exactly at 33 1/3 rpm (assuming one has the right and calibrated tools & instruments to also measure the platter speed to this very high accuracy). Of course changing the platter speed ever so slightly will change the sound to some degree or another.

Just my 2 pennies worth of thoughts on what at face value by looks alone is a lovely looking turntable !

There are several interesting technologies in the T1. We've talked about the magnetic induction drive mechanism and its ability to influence the torque of the platter. This physical connection-less approach appears to be quite novel. For now I'm thinking this is not a speed control mechanism. What @mtemur and I are discussing/speculating are possibilities about how stable rotational accuracy could be achieved.

Two critical functions of a TT are to i) spin the platter at 33-1/3rpm and ii) do so with the least possible noise. I see the magnetic drive coupled with the magnetic assist to substantially but not totally float the platter (what they call 'magne-float') as primarily for noise reduction. (Maybe Mike will put a stethoscope on the plinth -- I bet it is *very* quiet.) I speculate this may influence the overall sound moreso than changing the torque of the platter. Esoteric has freedom from vibration first on their feature list. Hard to gauge relative benefit. It's an integrated design whose parts work together.

I'll go with Esoteric knowing what they are doing and the design is not flawed. It will be interesting to know the influence of the external clock.

 

[thekong]

I would be very surprised if the T1 has no means to monitor the platter speed! If the platform / platter unit is indeed pure passive, my guess would be the motor pot has some sort of sensor, maybe optical sensor, to read the platter speed through the platter’s induction wheel, which looks like a strobe patten itself.

 

[Ron Resnick]

A

This physical connection-less approach appears to be quite novel.

Hasn't Clearaudio used magnetic drive for many years on the Master Innovation turntable?

 

[Lagonda]

The magnetic driving wheel could be measuring the speed of the platter while driving the platter. The little notches on the platter can give you a very precise position of the platter at any given time, much more precise than one magnet placed on the platter like the RoadRunner uses. Studer uses system of 120 little notches cut on the outside of the flywheel for measuring the speed of the outrunner flywheel inside their capstan motors, and make speed adjustment accordingly.

https://www.reeltoreel.nl/studer/Public/Products/Recording_Analog/CapstanPapers/JAES-69-17-4_AFStosberg_NewCapstanDriveConcept.pdf

 

[oldvinyl]

A


Hasn't Clearaudio used magnetic drive for many years on the Master Innovation turntable?

The Master Innovation uses magnets to isolate the platter that is belt driven from the upper platter. This decouples noise from the motor since there is no direct connection between the platters. In the photo, the lowest platter is belt driven and has magnets arranged on its top. The platter direct above it has magnets arranged on the bottom that repels the force of the platter below it. The second platter floats and the magnetic coupling spins it.

That is distinctly different than using magnetic coupling between the motor and the platter.

---

---

 

[oldvinyl]

I agree with you.


I don't know Esoteric's implementation and what type of motor is used, AC or DC. So I can only share my guess on this:
I believe there is a software, probably running on Linux SOC that is responsible for driving and controlling the motor. Software makes decisions on correction signal depending on the difference between the motor speed and platter speed. For example if platter is stopped, not spinning and 33.3rpm is pressed then software sends aggressive signals to quickly reach 33.3 rpm but if platter is spinning at 33rpm then software doesn't need to take aggressive measures to compensate for 0.3 rpm difference. Those motor control signals can vary in waveform and voltage and there can be infinite combinations. That's the beauty of using a software, it can judge readings from platter and motor and produce appropriate motor control signals depending on the situation. I believe those motor control signals are digitally produced by software then converted to analog and amplified. That certainly doesn't make the turntable in any way digital. I Know OMA K3 uses software to control the motor but apart from that I don't know OMA's implementation either.


I mentioned it regarding magnetic coupling between pulley and platter. Since magnetic coupling is not a physical connection, the pulley and platter are not locked like gears, the existence of slip between them is inevitable. When gap between them increases slippage increases too. Increase in slippage will lead to an increased duration of applied correctional signal. When the gap decreases slippage decreases as well as duration of signal cause platter will reach ordered speed by software more quickly. Shorter the gap higher the magnetic coupling and lower the slippage.

An SoC running Linux would run into several issues. 10 MHz is not a fast enough clock for an SoC running an OS. Upconverting the clock with PLL's will decrease the accuracy, so it would be $$ wasted. Also, Linux latency and overhead would swamp any accuracy from the external clock. Getting Linux to run real-time is quite the trick. The internal counters and POSIX clock accuracy would render the clock accuracy irrelevant.

My uninformed $0.02 is that the precision clock controls either 1) a COTS motor controller (such as TI), 2) an FPGA or ASIC that would control the motor, or 3) a small microprocessor with deterministic and accurate timing to control the motor.

Certainly is fascinating that the design provides for an external reference clock. Then again, Esoteric makes that clock.

 

[Jackl3y]

Gorgeous table. Wow. Like sculpture!
Regarding her question about adjustable torque, both the Technics 1200GR and 1200G have settings (switches, no knob). It changes the presentation a little. I run the lowest torque setting with reggae, Jazz or neofolk/acoustic music. I run high torque with everything else. Interestingly, most power noise seems better at low torque. Who’d have thought.

 

[morricab]

The Master Innovation uses magnets to isolate the platter that is belt driven from the upper platter. This decouples noise from the motor since there is no direct connection between the platters. In the photo, the lowest platter is belt driven and has magnets arranged on its top. The platter direct above it has magnets arranged on the bottom that repels the force of the platter below it. The second platter floats and the magnetic coupling spins it.

That is distinctly different than using magnetic coupling between the motor and the platter.
View attachment 107722

---

---

My friend has a Transrotor TT (I think Clearaudio actually got the idea from TR) that works exactly the same way. The bottom sub platter on his uses 3 motors I a belt drive configuration that spins the bottom platter which is magnetically coupled to the top passive platter.

 

[mtemur]

An SoC running Linux would run into several issues. 10 MHz is not a fast enough clock for an SoC running an OS. Upconverting the clock with PLL's will decrease the accuracy, so it would be $$ wasted. Also, Linux latency and overhead would swamp any accuracy from the external clock. Getting Linux to run real-time is quite the trick. The internal counters and POSIX clock accuracy would render the clock accuracy irrelevant.

My uninformed $0.02 is that the precision clock controls either 1) a COTS motor controller (such as TI), 2) an FPGA or ASIC that would control the motor, or 3) a small microprocessor with deterministic and accurate timing to control the motor.

Certainly is fascinating that the design provides for an external reference clock. Then again, Esoteric makes that clock.

IMHO 10MHz clock is for the signal not for the computer. Think it like a DAC with a precision clock connected to a computer. DAC can run on a steady precision clock while computer is running on it’s own without interference. That’s a common thing we encounter with modern DACS.

Besides that any of the 3 options you listed can be used as well.

 

[tima]

The Master Innovation uses magnets to isolate the platter that is belt driven from the upper platter. This decouples noise from the motor since there is no direct connection between the platters. In the photo, the lowest platter is belt driven and has magnets arranged on its top. The platter direct above it has magnets arranged on the bottom that repels the force of the platter below it. The second platter floats and the magnetic coupling spins it.

That is distinctly different than using magnetic coupling between the motor and the platter.
View attachment 107722

---

---

Sure looks like belt drive from this angle.

 

[morricab]

Sure looks like belt drive from this angle.

Yes, the lower platter is belt drive...the upper platter is magnetically coupled to the lower platter by magnets attached to the upper side of the lower platter and magnets attached to the lower side of the upper platter that magnetically "lock" the two platters together. My friend's trans rotor has the motors inside the housing of the lower platter, so you don't see them or the belts turning the lower platter. His also uses three motors so that there is even pull on the driving sub platter. This does the same decoupling of the drive system from the platter as the Grandioso. Of course ClearAudio and Transrotor could have just used a really good direct drive motor to turn the sub platter, making it then much more like the Grandioso but both companies are of the ethos that belt drive is the way to go.

 

[tima]

This does the same decoupling of the drive system from the platter as the Grandioso.

Okay, thanks for the explanation. I would say that as both Transrotor and Grandioso decouple the platter from the drive.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Okay, thanks for the explanation. I would say that as both Transrotor and Grandioso decouple the platter from the drive.

rim drive/idler is fundamentally different than belt in the whole torque question, and speed steadiness too. comparing my CS Port to the Saskia model two a clear difference.

not saying necessarily better or worse, different.

we don't know that Esoteric did not consider a belt in their investigations. and clean sheet of paper approach to where the magnetic component would best be applied.

 

[tima]

I was intending them as distinct rather than similar.

yes, we don't know what esoteric did not consider

 

[PeterA]

Yes, the lower platter is belt drive...the upper platter is magnetically coupled to the lower platter by magnets attached to the upper side of the lower platter and magnets attached to the lower side of the upper platter that magnetically "lock" the two platters together. My friend's trans rotor has the motors inside the housing of the lower platter, so you don't see them or the belts turning the lower platter. His also uses three motors so that there is even pull on the driving sub platter. This does the same decoupling of the drive system from the platter as the Grandioso. Of course ClearAudio and Transrotor could have just used a really good direct drive motor to turn the sub platter, making it then much more like the Grandioso but both companies are of the ethos that belt drive is the way to go.

Brad, is the distance between the magnets/platters on either the Clearaudio or Transrotor adjustable?

 

[morricab]

Okay, thanks for the explanation. I would say that as both Transrotor and Grandioso decouple the platter from the drive.

JR Transrotor Orion Reference FMD With TR 5009 Tonearm - The Absolute Sound

"FMD (Free Magnetic Drive): a magnetic clutch fully separating the drive section from the platter – wow and flutter are immeasurable. Both platters – the lower and the upper – have separate bearings. They are completely separated - the only driving force is magnetism. Distortion is practically immeasurable. FMD by Transrotor is a completely unique and revolutionary solution in the world of turntables."

 

[morricab]

Brad, is the distance between the magnets/platters on either the Clearaudio or Transrotor adjustable?

ClearAudio I have no idea but with the Transrotor I believe it is adjustable.

 

[Lagonda]

JR Transrotor Orion Reference FMD With TR 5009 Tonearm - The Absolute Sound

"FMD (Free Magnetic Drive): a magnetic clutch fully separating the drive section from the platter – wow and flutter are immeasurable. Both platters – the lower and the upper – have separate bearings. They are completely separated - the only driving force is magnetism. Distortion is practically immeasurable. FMD by Transrotor is a completely unique and revolutionary solution in the world of turntables."

How do they sound Brad ?

 

[morricab]

How do they sound Brad ?

its a very good TT. precise, transparent and quite dynamic. Hearing differences in arms and carts is very easy. It is dead silent as well.

 

[Lagonda]

its a very good TT. precise, transparent and quite dynamic. Hearing differences in arms and carts is very easy. It is dead silent as well.

Was that the one with a plastic platter or the metal on ? They are good looking for sure !