Fastest Subs?

[mojave]

So, less group delay could also be achieved by using a sub that has no DSP.

The goal to get less group delay at the expense of DSP is audibly a counterproductive endeavor.

For example, could I DSP on the computer for the sub using Audiolense FIR filters?

I own Audiolense. Audiolense can definitely lower the group delay. Bernt, the developer of Audiolense, has stated that group delay is not a parameter that needs to be looked at when determining the best sounding filter. He is more concerned with the impulse response.

Besides Audiolense, I also have a Lynx AES16e and use JRiver. It is recommenced that one use the same ASIO device for input/output when measuring for Audiolense. Yesterday I ordered a Tascam US-366 to use as a mic preamp since it has AES output. The Tascam US-144mkii also has AES output, but its A/D converter doesn't route to digital out when using the mic input. Hopefully the US-366 will allow all input/output to be routed through the AES16e using ASIO.

 

[treitz3]

No. I'm talking group delay as to what Don said. I'm not convinced it'll be audibly different

Gotcha.

 

[dallasjustice]

Yesterday I ordered a Tascam US-366 to use as a mic preamp since it has AES output. The Tascam US-144mkii also has AES output, but its A/D converter doesn't route to digital out when using the mic input. Hopefully the US-366 will allow all input/output to be routed through the AES16e using ASIO.

Thanks Mojave! I owned audiolense about 4 years ago and I later sold it because it was too complex for me to use at the time. I believe it can be used as a plugin now with Jriver, right? Anyway, I would consider using it again, if I could find someone to teach me how to use it and set everything up properly. Let me know how the Tascam goes.

 

[Robh3606]

When you get a chance read this.

Rob

 

[dallasjustice]

When you get a chance read this.

Rob

Awesome paper! My favorite part is the qualifier at the end of page 6 where the authors claim modal eq below 50 hz is useless, "except in extreme cases." Isn't that what this forum is all about? The "exteme cases?"

 

[LL21]

Awesome paper! My favorite part is the qualifier at the end of page 6 where the authors claim modal eq below 50 hz is useless, "except in extreme cases." Isn't that what this forum is all about? The "exteme cases?"

Yeah...seriously. Seems the author would think it extreme that many of us cut off our subs entirely at or below 50hz!

 

[Steve williams]

So no one want to answer the question I posed. How about the OP

 

[dallasjustice]

Which question? The one where you assert group delay doesn't matter with a question mark at the end? No one can really answer that question because there's no relevant research. For buying purposes, I would assume it matters and if I am wrong what harm have I done?

So no one want to answer the question I posed. How about the OP

 

[Steve williams]

Which question? The one where you assert group delay doesn't matter with a question mark at the end? No one can really answer that question because there's no relevant research. For buying purposes, I would assume it matters and if I am wrong what harm have I done?

no harm no foul.

I offered my thoughts not out of curiosity but from an almost identical situation in my room. It was not meant to be sarcastic but my experience spending months dialing in my Gothams and now my Fathom subs

I agree with you that it probably matters but I guess I am trying to save you some money (go figure, an MD trying to save a lawyer money ) as I was unable to hear sonic differences

 

[JackD201]

go figure, an MD trying to save a lawyer money

LOL! You guys are on a roll today!

 

[dallasjustice]

I DO appreciate your experience Steve. I am curious about your sub placement; are you using 2 subs? Do you run them in mono or stereo? Where are they crossed over? Are you measuring with a microphone or doing it by ear? What is your objective in using subs? Increased headroom? Reduced modal ringing?

Thanks,
Michael.

no harm no foul.

I offered my thoughts not out of curiosity but from an almost identical situation in my room. It was not meant to be sarcastic but my experience spending months dialing in my Gothams and now my Fathom subs

I agree with you that it probably matters but I guess I am trying to save you some money (go figure, an MD trying to save a lawyer money ) as I was unable to hear sonic differences

 

[Steve williams]

Hi Michael

It seems that you and I have thought of similar ways to integrate the subs

Yes I run them in mono

I measure initially with a microphone and then ultimately by ear

Present crossover is 50 Hz but this is not etched in stone as I have gone down to as low as 43 Hz (where I had my Gothams crossed)

One thing I do that I haven't figured from your posts whether you are doing the same is whether you use your YG speakers full range (as do I) and then use the subs to supplement everything below 50 Hz. I have been playing with crossovers as high as 70 Hz and as low as 40 Hz with the Fathom subs. Measurements have been taken with every change. I use a 24 Db filter but have also used 12 Db. The thought with using a 12 Db filter crossed at 50-55 Hz was to see what mid bass sound would be passed to the subs. I like your idea of sub placement and wish I had the space to do as you planned as I feel I would get a better response but yes I don't daisy chain my subs but rather use them in mono. Finally I have listened intently with each change and have been finding that (for me at least) below 50 Hz I am unable to discern any of the changes even though my microphone readings suggest otherwise.

I am toying with the idea of also using a smaller 3rd sub in one of the rear corners as it was discussed in detail here a few years ago by Dr Geddes re subs and placement of such

 

[dallasjustice]

I haven't started my project yet. I just have an initial report from Nyal which lays out the plan to integrate the 2 subs in mono. The plan is to crossover the YGs at around 50hz although I could crossover lower. There are 2 reasons to crossover the main left and right; (1) eliminate remaining 1st and 2nd axial length modes (23.5hz and 47hz) (2) increase overall system headroom. Therefore, the subs must be placed close to the front and back of the room to counteract the modes. I will need to have Nyal out to my house once i get it all setup so he can do impulse response measurements and hopefully I can learn something watching him work as well.

How are you crossing your main left and right over? Do you use an analog crossover or are you using a computer/processor with multiple digital/analog outs?

 

[dallasjustice]

Hi Michael

It seems that you and I have thought of similar ways to integrate the subs

I am toying with the idea of also using a smaller 3rd sub in one of the rear corners as it was discussed in detail here a few years ago by Dr Geddes re subs and placement of such

Why not go for 4 subs in mono? Isn't that what Toole recommends? I want you to hit the barbed wire first on this one.

 

[Steve williams]

I haven't started my project yet. I just have an initial report from Nyal which lays out the plan to integrate the 2 subs in mono. The plan is to crossover the YGs at around 50hz although I could crossover lower. There are 2 reasons to crossover the main left and right; (1) eliminate 1st and 2nd axial length modes (23.5hz and 47hz) (2) increase overall system headroom. Therefore, the subs must be placed close to the front and back of the room to counteract the modes. I will need to have Nyal out to my house once i get it all setup so he can do impulse response measurements and hopefully I can learn something watching him work as well.

How are you crossing your main left and right over? Do you use an analog crossover or are you using a computer/processor with multiple digital/analog outs?

As I said I wish I could position my subs the way you are planning

I use my X2's full range and use the crossover on each Fathom (less than ideal). Presently I am using 50 Hz and cross out everything above 50 Hz

Michael

Here is one thing that looks very interesting and you might want to look into it

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Anyone-try-it&p=146830&viewfull=1#post146830

 

[Steve williams]

I agree about 4. I would have done that in my last room but in this one it would loosen the plaster in the room

As for more than one sub I always run them in mono

 

[dallasjustice]

The main problem is see with most subwoofer integration is trying to get the proper delay applied, particularly to the main channel (left/right), so that all of the sound hits the listener's ear at the same time and also have a unified volume control. In some ways, the folks that use HT processors and DEQX have the best setup because they can do that no problem. Us 2 channel fossils are making it hard on ourselves for sure. I am planning on using Jriver to do this. I believe the room correction suite Jriver offers, along with a Lynx AES16 will be enough for me to get started.

 

[Steve williams]

I for one am most interested in your progress in this project. Let me just say that it took e months to come close with my Gotham subs

but will you be running your YG's full range or only above 50 Hz

 

[edorr]

The main problem is see with most subwoofer integration is trying to get the proper delay applied, particularly to the main channel (left/right), so that all of the sound hits the listener's ear at the same time and also have a unified volume control. In some ways, the folks that use HT processors and DEQX have the best setup because they can do that no problem. Us 2 channel fossils are making it hard on ourselves for sure. I am planning on using Jriver to do this. I believe the room correction suite Jriver offers, along with a Lynx AES16 will be enough for me to get started.

If you don't mind an extra box in the audio chain, the four channel Trinnov ST Pro unit will do this just brilliantly. You can use the digital out of the Trinnov to your Totaldac for mains, and the not too shabby Trinnov DACs to drive your subs. I did this with Avalons and a pair of JL 113s for a while. Not sure Jriver will allow the same level of sub mains integration

I personally no longer need the sub integration, because I sold my subs, so I am trying to simplify my system and take out the Trinnov (run Dirac on my server instead). However, for your application, I suspect you would get best results using Trinnov (or DEQX I guess).

 

[dallasjustice]

If you don't mind an extra box in the audio chain, the four channel Trinnov ST Pro unit will do this just brilliantly. You can use the digital out of the Trinnov to your Totaldac for mains, and the not too shabby Trinnov DACs to drive your subs. I did this with Avalons and a pair of JL 113s for a while. Not sure Jriver will allow the same level of sub mains integration

I personally no longer need the sub integration, because I sold my subs, so I am trying to simplify my system and take out the Trinnov (run Dirac on my server instead). However, for your application, I suspect you would get best results using Trinnov (or DEQX I guess).

This is interesting. What does "192k ready" mean? Is it bit transparent up to 192k or only 96k?

I don't think DEQX has an AES out?