First trials of active horn speaker
- Thread starter morricab
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Cool videos, and they do sound very nice, well done.
Interesting the digital crossover route. Maybe you loose a bit in the analogue to digital process? And the phase and timing are things to watch.
How do you control the slope? Or is it pre-set?
I guess the majority of speakers use passive crossovers, and the designer must spend hours and hours testing and tuning to get the blend right. Not just the drivers, but how they respond in a cabinet, bit of a nightmare maybe.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/zingali-horn-speakers-tweaking-the-crossovers-diy.30553/
On my smaller project, I am changing out the caps as I think they have aged, and anyway look pretty mid grade. Maybe voiced based on thiose cpas, but Zingali uses those same caps in all his models, so i don't think he is doing much 'tuning' as such. I want to get more speed and transparency going. Then I will see if I need to up the gain on the horn a bit. My room is not so big and the 12 inch bass driver is a bit too over prominant.
As in all these things, it is small adjustments. I bet you tweak a lot with your crossovers, till you get them just right. But then it is magic.
I think tuning by ear is good, then do a sweep test tone. And look for peaks and troughs, then room nodes on the bass. Some adjustments will be the CX some the room and speaker position. You have a wooden floor I think, so some isolation may be worth trying there. I am concrete floor and tiles, but still used DIY stands and some rubber isolation under the stand.
Interesting the digital crossover route. Maybe you loose a bit in the analogue to digital process? And the phase and timing are things to watch.
How do you control the slope? Or is it pre-set?
I guess the majority of speakers use passive crossovers, and the designer must spend hours and hours testing and tuning to get the blend right. Not just the drivers, but how they respond in a cabinet, bit of a nightmare maybe.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/zingali-horn-speakers-tweaking-the-crossovers-diy.30553/
On my smaller project, I am changing out the caps as I think they have aged, and anyway look pretty mid grade. Maybe voiced based on thiose cpas, but Zingali uses those same caps in all his models, so i don't think he is doing much 'tuning' as such. I want to get more speed and transparency going. Then I will see if I need to up the gain on the horn a bit. My room is not so big and the 12 inch bass driver is a bit too over prominant.
As in all these things, it is small adjustments. I bet you tweak a lot with your crossovers, till you get them just right. But then it is magic.
I think tuning by ear is good, then do a sweep test tone. And look for peaks and troughs, then room nodes on the bass. Some adjustments will be the CX some the room and speaker position. You have a wooden floor I think, so some isolation may be worth trying there. I am concrete floor and tiles, but still used DIY stands and some rubber isolation under the stand.
Hello Morricab
Yes it is the M2 waveguide but I am using a different compression driver the JBL 476Mg. It's a large format 4" driver with a coated magnesium diaphragm. Much more output than a 2430 down low. I am also going passive, I have the compression driver comp done. Might need a little tweak with padding and from listening impressions as I am only working with on axis measurements for now but it's essentially done. I have to measure the woofer in the cabinet and do the low pass crossover from there.
I am setting up the 2216nd in a low tuned 26Hz cabinet so I can dial up the low bass as required. Gives you a nice banana curve so with any room gain you don't get overwhelmed and you can add a little EQ at Fb where drivers excursion is lowest. That EQ will be done with digital EQ.
Rob
One of the benefits of the JBL D2 Dual Diaphragm driver is that it extends to 20K+ hz. JBL uses the 476MG in the current top of the line speaker (D67000) with a super tweeter on top. Will you be adding the super tweeter?
Hello jeffrey
No they actually run out past 20Khz and they are actually quite clean if you look at the waterfall plot. They don't have the really ragged break up modes like the Ti diaphragms do and are more extended than the Be which tend to start to roll off above 10K. So it's a good compromise. That and adding a tweeter is going to cause other issues. In the 67000 they just let the 476Mg run out they don't high pass it. The super tweeter improves the DI in the upper octaves and give true ultrasonic performance for the Asian markets. We do have a guy over on Lansing Heritage who CNC machined his M2 waveguides to add 045 tweeters to them! Little too ambitious for me!
Rob
Hello jeffrey
No they actually run out past 20Khz and they are actually quite clean if you look at the waterfall plot. They don't have the really ragged break up modes like the Ti diaphragms do and are more extended than the Be which tend to start to roll off above 10K. So it's a good compromise. That and adding a tweeter is going to cause other issues. In the 67000 they just let the 476Mg run out they don't high pass it. The super tweeter improves the DI in the upper octaves and give true ultrasonic performance for the Asian markets. We do have a guy over on Lansing Heritage who CNC machined his M2 waveguides to add 045 tweeters to them! Little too ambitious for me!
Rob
Seems like a cool driver. Is it with a 1.5 inch throat or 1.4 inch throat? One of the reasons I chose the Beyma drivers was how smooth they are in the top octaves, despite using Ti. Somehow, they figured out how to avoid the nasty breakup above 10Khz. The larger CP755Ti does it, in part, by having a metal dome but a mylar suspension. The CP350...is just really well designed and super smooth all they way up with a lot lower distortion than most other compression drivers...even than the larger CP755Ti (not that you actually hear this difference I don't think).
I guess you should also try to get the same driver that is used in the M2 for comparison as that waveguide was basically custom made for that driver. Would make for an interesting comparison.
Hello Moricab
It's a 1.5 throat. The differences in the surrounds is the key. The surrounds in the JBL's are designed to add energy to upper octave as a secondary resonance. They add a lot of energy but quite a bit of it is laced with high levels of 2nd and 3rd distortion. Even though a Be driver has a rolled off high end in comparison it's much cleaner and looking at a CSD or a wavelet measurement it is easy to understand why.
Rob
New update:
I have now purchased a pair of Radian 475pbBe drivers (16 ohm), which I will try on the Iwata 600 horn in place of the Beyma CP350Ti. We will see if the Be drivers are that much better (or at all better) than the wonderful sounding CP350Ti. I am very curious how this will turn out.
In addition, I bought a pair of 300b monoblocks that are based on the WE model 91 amplifier (310a input/driver, 274 rectifier and 300B output stage). These are from Hong Kong and the design update is by Torsten Loesch if I am not mistaken. The update on the design gives a wider bandwidth for bass and treble and modern high quality parts for a cleaner sound. These will probably be used on the horn, replacing the WLM Minueta, but I will see how they perform on the Supravox mid/bass as well.
Stay tuned as I should start getting stuff next week.
I have now purchased a pair of Radian 475pbBe drivers (16 ohm), which I will try on the Iwata 600 horn in place of the Beyma CP350Ti. We will see if the Be drivers are that much better (or at all better) than the wonderful sounding CP350Ti. I am very curious how this will turn out.
In addition, I bought a pair of 300b monoblocks that are based on the WE model 91 amplifier (310a input/driver, 274 rectifier and 300B output stage). These are from Hong Kong and the design update is by Torsten Loesch if I am not mistaken. The update on the design gives a wider bandwidth for bass and treble and modern high quality parts for a cleaner sound. These will probably be used on the horn, replacing the WLM Minueta, but I will see how they perform on the Supravox mid/bass as well.
Stay tuned as I should start getting stuff next week.
I use that driver and like it a lot.
Because of the lack of break-up it may not have as much top-octave energy as you are used to, so you may need to make some adjustments to your crossover and/or EQ. NOT trying to put down the Beyma (I used the neo-magnet version of yours for many years), just relaying my experience.
Hello morricab
Great! best of luck with them. I am partial to the Be drivers and am curious what your impressions are. Got my speakers up and running installed the passive networks last night. Was doing a Bi-Amp passive comp until I could get them built.
Rob
Not all but caps are obligatto I think and iron is supposed to be petty good
Make a video!Hello morricab
Great! best of luck with them. I am partial to the Be drivers and am curious what your impressions are. Got my speakers up and running installed the passive networks last night. Was doing a Bi-Amp passive comp until I could get them built.
Rob
I am not sure how much breakup there is for the Beyma because sounds very clean in the top octaves. I have heard the Be version in the Live Act Audio speakers, which encouraged me to go for it. The Nd version you were using was with the Mylar diaphragm, wasn’t it?
Hello morricab
Great! best of luck with them. I am partial to the Be drivers and am curious what your impressions are. Got my speakers up and running installed the passive networks last night. Was doing a Bi-Amp passive comp until I could get them built.
Rob
Jbl 476 Be?
I tried them head to head with tad 2001. 2001 may have just a little on them, and that’s a maybe! I also use 850 for my mids which sounded better than 4001 and 950’s as well as bms. So ended up choosing a family member
Still, whether it is good or bad depends on the implementation. It is as important as the driver. What bandwidth you are using them for, with which horns, does the throat angle match with exit angle, how are the crossovers... It all works together and any comment without complete information about these would be very lacking.
Still, whether it is good or bad depends on the implementation. It is as important as the driver. What bandwidth you are using them for, with which horns, does the throat angle match with exit angle, how are the crossovers... It all works together and any comment without complete information about these would be very lacking.
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Yes, the CP385-Nd has a Mylar diaphragm (or some type of polymer diaphragm). I didn't catch that yours is the Ti version; didn't realize they made one.
In my R&D phase I went through something like nineteen compression drivers before the CP385-Nd. It was recommended to me by Al at US Speaker.
I've probably sold more home audio speakers with the CP385-Nd than all others combined.
Yes, the CP350TI is an older driver, the predecessor of the current CP380m, which is the Ferrite version of the CP385Nd you used. The 350 and 380 seem to have had the same motor only a change of diaphragm. I am not a big fan of the plastic diaphragms so far but the 385Nd was on my list.
For a larger format, this CP755TI is really killer.
Yes, I heard many good things about this driver, especially the Be version. Let’s see if it matches well with my Iwata 600 horn crossed around 1khz. The Beyma works very well in this horn (It didn’t work well in an 18 Sound XT120).I tried them head to head with tad 2001. 2001 may have just a little on them, and that’s a maybe! I also use 850 for my mids which sounded better than 4001 and 950’s as well as bms. So ended up choosing a family member
Still, whether it is good or bad depends on the implementation. It is as important as the driver. What bandwidth you are using them for, with which horns, does the throat angle match with exit angle, how are the crossovers... It all works together and any comment without complete information about these would be very lacking.
I considered the Radian 835pb but went for the CP755TI instead. Maybe I will give The Radian a try if the little one is a success.
Hello morricab
I am not a big believer in posted videos. Yeah they give you an idea but there is always the but! They came out very well, Have to finish the raw cabinets which will be a fall/winter project. They measure very well within in a dB or 2 of the target curve which is all you can ask for. Very dynamic sounding not sure how that would translate to video playing a speaker back through another speaker??
I am using the Mg driver more extended than Be and very clean up top. Here is a CSD/Wavelet of the compensated driver. Also a picture of the speakers as they are now.
Rob
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Very nice, Rob!
I didn't realize the waveguide from the JBL M2 was available. Yes Peter Noerbaek is using them, but I assume that's because he knows a guy.
Magnesium diaphragm?
All of a sudden it feels like I've lived an overly sheltered life. JBL, I presume?
I didn't realize the waveguide from the JBL M2 was available. Yes Peter Noerbaek is using them, but I assume that's because he knows a guy.
Magnesium diaphragm?
All of a sudden it feels like I've lived an overly sheltered life. JBL, I presume?
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