FM Acoustics amps

A.wayne:

Do yourself a favor and read up on my amps
https://passlabs.com/products/amplifiers/xs/xs-150

The wattage at full class A push/pull doubles from 8 to 4 ohms...specs, pass says These amps will drive any load. True, if I had big inefficient speakers and listen real loud my amp could go out of class a to a/b....doesn't happen in my system with large 95 dB efficient speakers. My bias meters don't move, therefore I am enjoying full class a at my desired listening levels. Time to move on.

Very familiar with them Christian , very much so , you can forward what i said to Papa , wait for a response , it's not full class-a to clipping at 2 ohm , the devil is in the details ..

This tells the tale :

Power Consumption (W) 500 , this is your class-a bias amt ...

So what Papa did was lower his 8 ohm rating , to give the amp an class-a rating into 4 , notice no 2 ohm rating , i bet this amp would drive 1 ohm, all of his amps do , i have tried .. :)

I'm sure this amp will put out a lot more than those ratings and as it does it is in AB mode. Not to worry they are fantastic amps , you wont hear when they drop out of Class-a, no THUD, Papa builds good stuff ...


Regards,
 
agree, but There is no such amp capable of producing full class-a power to 1 ohm , those amplifiers are switching to a/b to produce that amt of power, as I'm about to explain to Christian ...

:)


Again , you can only be full class-a to a rated output at a specific impedance, your amp has what is known as its quiescence bias, this determines its total class-a output, repeating the same wrong statement a zillion times wont change that Christian .

So if your Pass or any amplifier for that matter is 200 watts class-a to clipping at 8 ohm , it will only be 100 @4 , 50 @ 2, 25@1 , means it is switching to ab to produce power above those levels. This will mean you are not full class-a to clipping at 4 ohm or 2 , well by your definition. This is why the class-a nomenclature is used on everything from 10 watt -200, as the marketing department play the lines ..

Eventually they will all switch to a/b .....well unless you're using a transformer ... :)

Regards,


I am just here to learn...the Gryphon website states clearly they are 100% Class A. What does this mean? From their website below:

For ultimate convenience, the Colosseum can be configured to turn on automatically when the preamplifier turns on and to power down following a period with no signal. A software-based user interface permits easy, intuitive access to practical user-controlled features.

Gryphon Audio Designs remains committed to discrete circuitry and 100% Class A bias in the Gryphon Colosseum power amplifier, weighing in at 80 kg.

While the Colosseum takes Gryphon's distinctive styling one step further, our ongoing commitment to uncompromising sound quality is reaffirmed by a wealth of details such as 2 x 160 Watts Pure Class A output power, 48 High-current bipolar output transistors, a 340,000 microFarad power capacitor bank and flat frequency response extending beyond 350 kHz.

True Class A operation has always been a Gryphon benchmark, because there is no substitute for the sheer musical magic of pure Class A. The Colosseum operates in true Class A mode with maximum power instantaneously available at all times, for unrivalled speed, control and accuracy. Once you experience the effortless realism and musicality of pure Class A, there is no turning back.

Class A
True Class A operation has always
been a Gryphon benchmark, simply
because nothing in our experience
can match the sonic glories of pure
Class A.
Unfortunately, true Class A is even
rarer today than when we introduced
the DM100. Rising consumer
awareness has forced some manufacturers
to stop making outrageous
unsubstantiated claims of
Class A power ratings that only
exist in the fevered imagination of
some marketing "expert".
Still, there is a growing number of
so-called "new" Class A topologies
based on automatic biasing which,
simply explained, somehow allow
the amplifier to sense when the bias
should increase to ensure constant
Class A performance!
If such thing were to actually work
as claimed, it would be tantamount
to a re-writing of the laws of
physics. In order for an amplifier to
be able to increase bias and stabilize
thermally to instantaneously
track the dynamics of the input, it
would have to be able to predict
what is going to happen next on the
recording. Auto-biasing can by
nature only respond to something
that has already happened and the
bias will rush up and down in a desperate
attempt to follow the last
note.
Put bluntly, there is no such thing as
a free lunch when it comes to pure
Class A, so we repeat with no
apologies: TRUE PURE CLASS A
means heavy transformers, very
large heatsinks, lots of heat, lots of
electricity, expensive parts and
costly assembly.
While we appreciate and endorse
every effort to conserve energy and
preserve our global resources, our
research into efforts to obtain Class
A performance from class A/B
topologies makes it clear that there
simply is no substitute for the sheer
magic of pure class A.
 
A.wayne:

Do yourself a favor and read up on my amps
https://passlabs.com/products/amplifiers/xs/xs-150

The wattage at full class A push/pull doubles from 8 to 4 ohms...specs, pass says These amps will drive any load. True, if I had big inefficient speakers and listen real loud my amp could go out of class a to a/b....doesn't happen in my system with large 95 dB efficient speakers. My bias meters don't move, therefore I am enjoying full class a at my desired listening levels. Time to move on.

actually your speakers are 94 db @ 2 watts/m

at a listening distance of 12 ft @ 2 watts you are outputting 82db that's 16 watts for 91 db x headroom necessary for dynamics i would estimate 256 /ch on the low side . So yes , if your avg din is not exceeding 91 db (94db stereo pr) then yes most of your listening is in class-a , if you see 96-100db avg din often then not ...

Of course if your avg din is 82 db , then you in Class-a nirvana forheeeeevar ...I would say your safe , no THUD to ab....:)

Regards,
 
The real question is how it sounds...and i get great. But if you want to get technical about Class A...i guess the operative question is...are you listening in Class A most of the time? I bet you are with this amp...aren't your speakers quite efficient?

Yes, they are.
 
I am just here to learn...the Gryphon website states clearly they are 100% Class A. What does this mean? From their website below:

For ultimate convenience, the Colosseum can be configured to turn on automatically when the preamplifier turns on and to power down following a period with no signal. A software-based user interface permits easy, intuitive access to practical user-controlled features.

Gryphon Audio Designs remains committed to discrete circuitry and 100% Class A bias in the Gryphon Colosseum power amplifier, weighing in at 80 kg.

While the Colosseum takes Gryphon's distinctive styling one step further, our ongoing commitment to uncompromising sound quality is reaffirmed by a wealth of details such as 2 x 160 Watts Pure Class A output power, 48 High-current bipolar output transistors, a 340,000 microFarad power capacitor bank and flat frequency response extending beyond 350 kHz.

True Class A operation has always been a Gryphon benchmark, because there is no substitute for the sheer musical magic of pure Class A. The Colosseum operates in true Class A mode with maximum power instantaneously available at all times, for unrivalled speed, control and accuracy. Once you experience the effortless realism and musicality of pure Class A, there is no turning back.

Class A
True Class A operation has always
been a Gryphon benchmark, simply
because nothing in our experience
can match the sonic glories of pure
Class A.
Unfortunately, true Class A is even
rarer today than when we introduced
the DM100. Rising consumer
awareness has forced some manufacturers
to stop making outrageous
unsubstantiated claims of
Class A power ratings that only
exist in the fevered imagination of
some marketing "expert".
Still, there is a growing number of
so-called "new" Class A topologies
based on automatic biasing which,
simply explained, somehow allow
the amplifier to sense when the bias
should increase to ensure constant
Class A performance!
If such thing were to actually work
as claimed, it would be tantamount
to a re-writing of the laws of
physics. In order for an amplifier to
be able to increase bias and stabilize
thermally to instantaneously
track the dynamics of the input, it
would have to be able to predict
what is going to happen next on the
recording. Auto-biasing can by
nature only respond to something
that has already happened and the
bias will rush up and down in a desperate
attempt to follow the last
note.
Put bluntly, there is no such thing as
a free lunch when it comes to pure
Class A, so we repeat with no
apologies: TRUE PURE CLASS A
means heavy transformers, very
large heatsinks, lots of heat, lots of
electricity, expensive parts and
costly assembly.
While we appreciate and endorse
every effort to conserve energy and
preserve our global resources, our
research into efforts to obtain Class
A performance from class A/B
topologies makes it clear that there
simply is no substitute for the sheer
magic of pure class A.

It states true class-a to 160 watts ....not 1000 !!!..:)

Whenever you want to know the true class-a rating on any amplifier , just ask for Idle consumption, not standby , Idle consumption ...
 
It states true class-a to 160 watts ....not 1000 !!!..:)

Whenever you want to know the true class-a rating on any amplifier , just ask for Idle consumption, not standby , Idle consumption ...

A. wayne is correct ... The theoretical maximum efficiency of Class A is 25%. Most amps barely reach 20% and often much less, in the teens... So an amp capable of delivering 1000 watts in Class A would consume at idle at least 5000 watts per channel, if it were to double down at say 4 ohms it would need to consume 10 KW at idle per channel... going to double down at 2 ohms while staying in Class A, would need 20 KW per side (regardless of the load impedance since the amp needs to be biased that way) ... I don't think such an amp has ever been contemplated .. The logistics would be nonsensical anyway as the amps would be consuming 20 KW per channel ALL THE TIME. and radiating most of it whether the amp is delivering 1 watt or 4000 watts

Having said this, I am not of the advice that Class A amps are automatically superior to Class AB amps. my favotite amps so far are not Class A... I am not yet convinced by Class D amps but they make sense in term of efficiency.
 
Switching distortion is not an issue at high SPL/ power levels, what is important IMO, is the first watt, how the signal is propagated . I had an interesting conversation many moons back with Mr Audio Note and had to listen thru his US rep translation of the importance of that 1st watt, it was yeah , yeah , right , sorry not going to listen to no damn 3 watt amplifier ...:)

A decade + later and i have come to appreciate the importance of that 1st watt ( sorry still need 1kw)..... Micro watts are very ,very important , it forms the basis of the signal we hear, look at how high the distortion is on most SS amps at .1 watt vs a tube. Again measurements let us see what we hear, ultimately i don't believe it necessary to have full class-a to clipping but very important for that 1st watt-20 watts, so i would agree , one does not need "full Class-a " for good sound ...

Class-d ..? no likey, not even in the bass as some claim , sounds artificial to me ......

Regards,
 
A. wayne is correct ... The theoretical maximum efficiency of Class A is 25%. Most amps barely reach 20% and often much less, in the teens... So an amp capable of delivering 1000 watts in Class A would consume at idle at least 5000 watts per channel, if it were to double down at say 4 ohms it would need to consume 10 KW at idle per channel... going to double down at 2 ohms while staying in Class A, would need 20 KW per side (regardless of the load impedance since the amp needs to be biased that way) ... I don't think such an amp has ever been contemplated .. The logistics would be nonsensical anyway as the amps would be consuming 20 KW per channel ALL THE TIME. and radiating most of it whether the amp is delivering 1 watt or 4000 watts

Having said this, I am not of the advice that Class A amps are automatically superior to Class AB amps. my favotite amps so far are not Class A... I am not yet convinced by Class D amps but they make sense in term of efficiency.


I do not remember any more the maths, but I think that the theoretical efficiency of single ended Class A amplifiers is 25%, the theoretical efficiency of push pull Class A amplifiers is 50% and the theoretical efficiency of transformer coupled class A amplifier is also 50%, although these values are never possible to reach, mainly because the impedance of a loudspeakers is not constant and not purely resistive, and amplifier class is usually specified for a 8 ohm resistive load.
 
I do not remember any more the maths, but I think that the theoretical efficiency of single ended Class A amplifiers is 25%, the theoretical efficiency of push pull Class A amplifiers is 50% and the theoretical efficiency of transformer coupled class A amplifier is also 50%, although these values are never possible to reach, mainly because the impedance of a loudspeakers is not constant and not purely resistive, and amplifier class is usually specified for a 8 ohm resistive load.

From Nelson Pass;

The question is inevitably asked, “Is this pure Class A, and where does it leave Class A”. I expect such questions insofar as I have probably been the biggest contributor to that sort of discussion. Let me first say that this consideration is only in service to the sound – if it improves the experience of the sound, then it is a virtue, otherwise it has little value.
To answer the question, first we note that the bias is achieved solely by constant bias values and there are no tricks. The topology of each half of the balanced output stage is that of a push-pull follower which is biased into single-ended Class A by a constant current source placed in parallel. The resulting efficiency is about 33%.
For a balanced version, we see that four out of the six output banks remain in Class A to the output power rating into 8 ohms, and the remaining two output banks are there to supply additional current when necessary.
 
Note 8 ohm ...

it's 50% lower per each halving of impedance, hence at 2 ohm Christian might hear that mighty class-ab thud and the warning chime ...
Warning you are now entering class ab, territory, expected placebo effect in place .......


:)
 
I do not remember any more the maths, but I think that the theoretical efficiency of single ended Class A amplifiers is 25%, the theoretical efficiency of push pull Class A amplifiers is 50% and the theoretical efficiency of transformer coupled class A amplifier is also 50%, although these values are never possible to reach, mainly because the impedance of a loudspeakers is not constant and not purely resistive, and amplifier class is usually specified for a 8 ohm resistive load.


There are purely resistive loudspeakers , but i digress .....:)
 
An interesting amp is the Tube Research Labs GTR-800. From what I understand it is push-pull triode 800W class A in 8 Ohm, zero NFB, and staying in 800W class A while impedance is dropping all the way down below 1 Ohm.

Thanks,
Roysen
 
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On FMA amps, Gary Koh has summed it up very nicely; "a lot of very high quality amps can have most of the magic of FMA but to get all of the magic is difficult". I believe Gary is a very experienced FMA user (ex) and is certainly qualified to make comments on it. He also mentioned that once "one is into FMA, it is difficult to leave".
A friend of an audiophile friend of mine has the FM 268 and 1811 and I hope to be able to listen to this combination soon. He told me that this combination is by far the best he has heard in a long while.
 
It states true class-a to 160 watts ....not 1000 !!!..:)

Whenever you want to know the true class-a rating on any amplifier , just ask for Idle consumption, not standby , Idle consumption ...

Thanks! So if the idle consumptin is roughly 800 watts, what does this mean into a 4ohm load? 80 watts per channel in Class A? with a speaker load that averages around 5.6-7ohms across the entire frequency range with very little exception, that means somewhere over 120 watts Class A into such a load?
 
An interesting amp is the Tube Research Labs GTR-800. From what I understand it is push-pull triode 800W class A in 8 Ohm, zero NFB, and staying in 800W class A while impedance is dropping all the way down below 1 Ohm.

Thanks,
Roysen

Possible , it uses an output transformer ... :)
 
On FMA amps, Gary Koh has summed it up very nicely; "a lot of very high quality amps can have most of the magic of FMA but to get all of the magic is difficult". I believe Gary is a very experienced FMA user (ex) and is certainly qualified to make comments on it. He also mentioned that once "one is into FMA, it is difficult to leave".
A friend of an audiophile friend of mine has the FM 268 and 1811 and I hope to be able to listen to this combination soon. He told me that this combination is by far the best he has heard in a long while.

Pls post your impressions! would love to know what you think!
 
Thanks! So if the idle consumptin is roughly 800 watts, what does this mean into a 4ohm load? 80 watts per channel in Class A? with a speaker load that averages around 5.6-7ohms across the entire frequency range with very little exception, that means somewhere over 120 watts Class A into such a load?

Loyd,

It is not enough to know the idle consumption to know the operating class versus power and load impedance - you have to know both the power supply DC voltage and the bias current of the output stage.
 

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