For what it's Worth-Tesla

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#61
but its not made in a tent :eek:
Keith

I love following your logic. It's filled with such common sense. Another one "blinded by the facts"
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#62
Mike, I am sorry but your last long post proves that common sense is not all that common. Looks like Honda will be the next Kodak. I have yet to to give a test drive in my 3 where people of all socioeconomic backgrounds didn’t lI’ve it. Several bought one, one even traded in his Civic.

My car has 515 Hp

My son has a Model 3.His little car can leave me in his dust before my foot even reaches the gas pedal. They are fun cars to drive whether they have tent dust on them or factory dust
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#63
Mike, I am sorry but your last long post proves that common sense is not all that common. Looks like Honda will be the next Kodak. I have yet to to give a test drive in my 3 where people of all socioeconomic backgrounds didn’t lI’ve it. Several bought one, one even traded in his Civic.
Kodak? you mean where a very expensive and high effort film process got replaced by a simple and cheap digital photography process brought about by a tech revolution?

what is simple, cheap and efficient about electric vehicles? the simple and cheap one's have augured in. the market rejected them. look at the numbers. pathetic. a joke.

early digital cameras were very good and fit lifestyles, then cell phones took over. that model does not fit electric cars.

Kodak? hardly.

maybe when they make 10 million all electrics a year that might happen. bets on when that is going to happen?

then you have to start to look at the implications of the electricity to fuel them every day. in 20 years we might be talking more about fuel cells, not all electric. hydrogen is much more environmentally friendly than generating electricity.

are Tesla's cool? absolutely. do people like them? some of them they do. but only a tiny part of the market right now.

but future implications? very debatable.

Honda has all electric products in the pipeline for certain specific markets. every manufacturer has their toe in the water. and there are also joint ventures with all this tech between manufacturers to spread the risk.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/honda-e-electric-car-us-market-demand/

i'm sure some here know better than they do.
 
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Muser

Well-Known Member
Jan 22, 2016
25
10
83
#64
Mike Lavigne said :
with a Tesla what does a 110v outlet do for you? besides allow you to plug in your shaver.
AND
Honda feels that all electric is not a good bet for the next 10 years at least. it's not a reasonable return on investment. they are betting on hybrid technology as more main market workable. they cannot invest billions with a 'B' on a hunch.

No intention to fight BUT

A 110v outlet gets me between 5-7 miles an hour, i.e. after plugging in overnight for 10 hours I have 50-70 new miles of travel. Fine for around town, less so for longer or impromtu travel. I bought my Model 3 as a commuter car, but love it for longer, leisurely trips. Tesla Superchargers get me 200+ miles in around 40 minutes, depending on the unit. Probably not acceptable for longer impromptu business trips with stricter schedules.

Tesla does an outstanding job of letting its drivers know where the next Supercharger is, how many chargers are at the station and how many are occupied in real time. My son and I traveled 300 miles recently, when our schedule was flexible. It was fine. We’d probably take my wife’s Honda going from "LA" to San Francisco - it would depend on our schedule.

Re: good bet for 10 years from now - I agree that’s a reasonable choice for the big car manufacturers. EVs probably aren’t a good bet for rural drivers or big car companies. So it goes. Market “forces” are just that, they compel the company to move. It’s the smaller, startup with lower overhead that initiates the change that larger companies need to be forced to address. Market efficiency relies on small (and large) earthquakes to create change.

Neither change nor progress arrive “finished.” Can you accept the cost of change? For me? Yes. I'm also willing to subsidize some of the costs - FWIW, California and our power companies still have incentives. Are others willing to deal with the current realities? Maybe not. Economically and for ease of use, I think hybrids are a better choice, but involves choosing to "poop" into the atmosphere and ground. EVs poop (what's not recyclable) into the ground. Yes, I oversimplified that.

Too bad this topic is so charged. Lots of intelligence to illuminate the topic and elicit more information.
 
Feb 8, 2011
24,311
1,243
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#65
It's fascinating to follow Tesla share's price for the last year (2019), before and now.
It's the most shorted stuck.
Expert financial analysts have a fun time predicting, from strong buy to sell.

Steve is right; on good news when the stock share prices rise take some profits, and on bad news when the stock goes down, buy more shares with your profits.

In the overall financial picture Tesla is a must own stock, it's a solid investment.

It hit a high of $547, and many predict $600 ... that's for the shorter run; one lady expert predicts $6,000 a share in the next five years.
Even the experts who have predicted lows of $250 reverted their lows to $400.

You can play the game in the short term (buy low/sell high) or you can be in it for the long run and rest longer @ night, without waking up in the middle to see where it's @.

The best is yet to come, and bad news is good for better future news...with Tesla stock.

That's my take; dont take it as an indicator for the future because you never know what tomorrow might bring. Follow the rainbow to where it leads you ... :)

Forgive me, a small touch of good humor ...
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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#66
dose of reality for the Pollyanna electric car future. there is negative trending demand.......and no evidence of any change.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...amed-tesla-are-carmakers-driving-off-a-cliff/

maybe those 'hybrid-thinking' guys at Honda are not so stupid after all.

and very telling related to Tesla...

Tesla was expected to suffer as new EV competition came online, but that’s not been the case. Some analysts think buyers don’t necessarily want an electric car when they buy a Tesla — they primarily want a Tesla, which has replaced the latest iPhone as the coolest accoutrement in Silicon Valley and similar cultural enclaves around the world.

so pump the brakes on all this EV love.......

the really sad thing is what sort of products won't get built, or how much more consumers will pay for products that do get built, and how much the auto industry will be harmed. someone has to pay for all this legislated research and waste.......otherwise those wasted assets would be improving value for all involved. consumers, auto companies, and stock-holders.
 
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Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,114
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Beverly Hills, CA
#67
Mike, I share a lot of your practical skepticism about an all EV automotive future. But I do think it is only a matter of time before Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche EV sports sedans and sports cars begin to draw buyers away from Tesla.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
9,029
2,974
770
#68
Mike, I share a lot of your practical skepticism about an all EV automotive future. But I do think it is only a matter of time before Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche EV sports sedans and sports cars begin to draw buyers away from Tesla.
honestly i don't really see it going that way. understand the magic of Tesla is it's singularity and the 'coolness' factor. when it loses those advantages, EV will not be enough to carry those others. it will become a matter of economics. and with 10 (or 30, or 50) similar expensive EV's logic will rear it's ugly head. not enough charging stations to overcome the inertia of range limits. no economic case to build sufficient charging stations.

i do think there will be so much invested in EV's that it will stumble forward in fits and starts. lots of finger pointing and such. bailouts requested by government who put them in this mess. i'll be retired and out of the car business. no worries.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
7,047
2,199
660
North Shore of Boston
#69
All this talk about needing to update the car's body style. I happen to like the look of the Model S, not so much the Model 3 or the SUV. I don't care if the Model S gets a makeover every few years or not. If something looks good, why change it? I suppose the manufacturers need to update the looks to get people to buy or lease the new models. I'd actually prefer it if improvements were more focused on technology for better handling, performance, safety and efficiency, rather than on aesthetics every few years. I guess that would not sell as much. I wish cars were designed to last longer. Now that might do something for the environment and our wasteful habits.

I feel sort of the same way about audio components. :)
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,236
1,153
390
#70
honestly i don't really see it going that way. understand the magic of Tesla is it's singularity and the 'coolness' factor. when it loses those advantages, EV will not be enough to carry those others. it will become a matter of economics. and with 10 (or 30, or 50) similar expensive EV's logic will rear it's ugly head. not enough charging stations to overcome the inertia of range limits. no economic case to build sufficient charging stations.

i do think there will be so much invested in EV's that it will stumble forward in fits and starts. lots of finger pointing and such. bailouts requested by government who put them in this mess. i'll be retired and out of the car business. no worries.
It all hinges on battery tech imo. The way things are now, I agree with you, EVs may not be better than ICE at anything except acceleration, depending on how they are charged they may be worse in terms of overall carbon emissions. A Model S is a near 5000 lb monster and it requires too much battery.

If we had batteries 5x + as energy dense as current Li batteries, inexpensive to manufacture, easy to recycle and safe EVs would be a lot more compelling.
 
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DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,236
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#71
I'd actually prefer it if improvements were more focused on technology for better handling, performance, safety and efficiency, rather than on aesthetics every few years.

Actually, there have been massive improvements in handling, performance, safety and efficiency in the last decade and especially the last few years. Today's cars are amazing. I have a 455 hp car that gets to 60 in 4 sec, corners over 1.1 lateral g's, gets 20 mpg, stops from 60 in 93 ft(!) and costs under $50k.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
7,047
2,199
660
North Shore of Boston
#72
Actually, there have been massive improvements in handling, performance, safety and efficiency in the last decade and especially the last few years. Today's cars are amazing. I have a 455 hp car that gets to 60 in 4 sec, corners over 1.1 lateral g's, gets 20 mpg, stops from 60 in 93 ft(!) and costs under $50k.
I'm not talking about cars in general, I'm talking about a particular model from a company that needs a body style change every few years. I would rather have them put that energy and money into improving those other things even more. I realize full well that there have been some nice improvements regarding handling, safety, efficiency and performance. My wife's car is far better than our other two from 2001 and 2003. So yes, progress is being made. Sure.

This is my way of saying that I'm fine with Tesla not changing the body style of their cars very often.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#73
dose of reality for the Pollyanna electric car future. there is negative trending demand.......and no evidence of any change.
well I guess the naysayers are perplexed this morning as Tesla is up over $60 per share and now well over $640 per share

IMO today would be another great day for taking profit off the table.

FWIW in the 52 week rolling average TSLA is up almost $500 per share
 
Feb 8, 2011
24,311
1,243
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
#74
I saw that yesterday. That was funny because just before that for the last two weeks or so some analysts were saying that Tesla is "doomed" to go down. I just don't know where they get their analysis from ... it proves again that you simply cannot underestimate Tesla and the man, Elon Musk. The model 3 is the best affordable electric car on the planet. The model Y is expanding ...
Tesla is climbing the mountains with billion dollar views ...

* https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/29/tesla-shares-jump-on-profitable-quarter-model-y-production/
 
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Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
1,850
508
345
NYC , USA
#76
To me he hit the note in the right time. Many not , me are all In on saving the globe we live on. Oddly the carbon foot print of an all battery cars is no better or worse then many production gas or diesel cars
Correct me if I’m wrong please
I think most modern cars are really a man to vehicle interface and very little direct link control anymore
Breaks
Windows
Gas pedal
Even many steering is not direct
Lastly since I used to race cars way back all gas cars. I had to hope it started and then had to let it warm up plenty
To me I start my super charged Mini Cooper and don’t laugh lol
And scream down my driveway at 30 degrees outside. I’m very grateful for this. a Tesla is the first move but does not make money on its own merely and needs big government add on ? Yes ?
if so it’s not sustainable to me.
why we don’t have hydrogen or
Compressed nat gas or many others. Look at bush beer he bought 100 of trucks that are not gas nor electric powdered trucks Yet our government gives them 0$ I wonder why lol.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#77
Totally agree Al

my point is that if you’re a stockholder I’d be taking some money off the table again.
 
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marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
1,795
997
555
United States
#79
Tesla is probably somewhat misunderstood as a car company. It's really a technology company that makes cars. The short sellers lost 1.5B on Tesla today and 5B this year alone after losing 2.9B in 2019. Many analysts think they are now a far more mature and professionally managed company than in the past. It's never a bad thing when the company now appears to be making money. Where are GM and Ford, who appear to pay investors with dividends only, not growth. My goodness, the world has changed.
 
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DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,236
1,153
390
#80
It will be interesting to see what GM comes up with... their strategy is not necessarily to lead innovation, but to implement it faster and better than everyone else... For example, anti-lock brakes. They weren't the first to market but I believe they were the first to offer them as standard on every car they sell. Their auto-drive / navigation system is behind Tesla thus far, but when it does come out in full it may be better, we'll see. GM's sports cars are also very competitive. OTOH, the Bolt and Volt were not well received and nobody understood what the Volt really was, the Bolt was too small and ugly, their marketing, design decisions and lineup are all questionable. Sometimes the engineering is world-class but but it seems like all too often there is a significant deal breaker that keeps people from buying GM cars.

I think the first to market with significantly better battery or fuel-cell tech will be the real winners! This could easily upset the apple cart and give one company a massive advantage that would make the others unable to compete. So I do think investment is risky, but I also think Elon seems pretty smart and might just be first to market with better battery tech too.

I also don't rate Ford too highly these days, they seem hard pressed to deliver quality products, but have a base that will buy Ford no matter what, no matter how bad it gets.
 
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