For what it's Worth-Tesla

[Kingrex]

Look at the graphs I posted and do a calculation on how much land mass would be required to power this country with wind and solar. Even a basic calculation of the total area. Then start looking for where that 12 mph constant wind and/or cold cloudless sky are. Now look at where the people live and calculate the expansion of grid and resources need to move the power from here to there. Don't forget to calculate the impact on agricultural land your turning into energy production. And don't forget to include the impact of Eminent Domain as the government forces people off their land and out of jobs. How are you going to deal with them. Its a very complex issue.

FWIW, WA state utilities years ago said they have all the rooftop solar they can use. They have cut the payback to reflect every new install is a 0 gain for the utility. Its wasted power. It only works in the day when its not really needed. Its not there in the morning or night when people get off work, go home and turn on there electrical toys or charge their cars. Rooftop solar is over.

 

[Kingrex]

And what are you going to do about the real energy emitters. China and India. And they are only just coming on line. They are adding 2 to 3 mega coal power plants per week. They are dumping massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere as they scale up to make goods for Europe and North America. You may feel all snuggly warm because you think the pollution has been halted in your yard, but you only moved it to the next door neighbors and he is using old, dirty technology. We all breath the same air.

 

[Joe Whip]

So, if my neighbor decides to poison the ground water I should too? I will start with cleaning up my property first.

 

[Ron Resnick]

So, if my neighbor decides to poison the ground water I should too? I will start with cleaning up my property first.

Okay, if a bit disingenuous. In your Post #258 you seem to be suggesting a nationwide program.

 

[Steve williams]

I think far to many people are unaware the scale of humanity. There are so many people. Billions. At a minimum you Joe, are part of the top 4% of wealth earners in the country. Your not recognizing the working class. They don't have $30K to drop on their roof. And I personally know 3 or 4 people that fell pray to some company pitching, let us put solar on your roof for free. Not a one would do it again. Especially when it comes time to sell your home and the single largest asset you have is now negatively impacted by a 3rd party owning your roof.

This is a non issue. For those who have loans leases on their solar panels, and sell the house before the loan or lease ia paid, it is paid off through escrow ...no one owns you r roof when you sell the house,. Whatever is owed, escrow pays it off upon sale of the house

 

[Steve williams]

And solar is peak load shedding. Its not baseload power. Solar is a waste of time. Concentrated solar in the desert where you heat salt to 900 degree is good power. But it too has issues. Cost being one. And a need for fresh water another.

You are so misguided.

 

[Steve williams]

Look at the graphs I posted and do a calculation on how much land mass would be required to power this country with wind and solar. Even a basic calculation of the total area. Then start looking for where that 12 mph constant wind and/or cold cloudless sky are. Now look at where the people live and calculate the expansion of grid and resources need to move the power from here to there. Don't forget to calculate the impact on agricultural land your turning into energy production. And don't forget to include the impact of Eminent Domain as the government forces people off their land and out of jobs. How are you going to deal with them. Its a very complex issue.

FWIW, WA state utilities years ago said they have all the rooftop solar they can use. They have cut the payback to reflect every new install is a 0 gain for the utility. Its wasted power. It only works in the day when its not really needed. Its not there in the morning or night when people get off work, go home and turn on there electrical toys or charge their cars. Rooftop solar is over.

Really...I can't believe I'm redid this.Once again you are woefully misguided. Rooftop solar is over??? WTF?

 

[Steve williams]

FWIW, I read today that Scotland just cut down 14 million trees to make room for wind farms. Perhaps you might like living in Scotland Rex

 

[Joe Whip]

Okay, if a bit disingenuous. In your Post #258 you seem to be suggesting a nationwide program.

Ron, that was in reference to the US v China and India. Not disingenuous at all. By my property I mean the USA.

 

[DaveC]

There's no great solution for the quandary we've put ourselves into wrt energy use and transportation.

One of the biggest issues is actually urban planning and infrastructure closely followed by lifestyle, which are related of course. If we didn't have to drive to do everything, including go to work, it would cut car use down by a massive amount, doing more to reduce energy consumption and pollution than whatever your choice of 2-ton personal conveyance might be. Many of our recent urban and suburban design is completely unsuitable for bikes and pedestrians to the point it's dangerous to walk and bike in many areas. Home sizes have also grown, and it uses a lot of energy to heat and cool buildings. We put up strip malls and pave-over everything for parking lots for miles at a stretch. We've created an unsustainable suburban wasteland that covers way too much of our country in the last few decades. This is hard to undo and even hard to slow down the spread because municipalities are often dependent on growth to be able to fund their own infrastructure maintenance.

All forms of energy have their pros and cons. For example, nuclear plants only return energy on a 5:1 ratio and that doesn't include long term storage of radioactive waste. The reason is the construction of such plants takes immense amounts of energy, concrete is one of the largest contributors of carbon emissions, and it takes a lot of concrete to build a nuclear plant. There's also waste heat, nuclear can significantly raise the temp of the body of water required to cool it's reactors.

I studied renewables in school and worked for Vestas wind turbines for a couple years. I designed assembly processes for their Nacelle and Hub factory in Brighton, CO. Wind is returning over 20:1 ratio of energy investment, but it needs a windy location without a lot of population and we still don't have good energy storage. So wind farms often have to be located far away from where the power is used. Solar has similar issues as far as storage and suitable locations, and manufacturing them certainly isn't "green" while wind turbines are more recyclable, but solar is easier to deploy.

So what makes sense is highly variable, there's no single answer and no best solution for either power or transportation. There's no doubt electric is the future both for cars and homes but the current tech leaves much to be desired. Going "green" often costs a small fortune. I'm about to replace my home's HVAC, and the "best" option right now is a Mitsubishi heat pump powered by solar. But my home would need a whole new service entrance, panels, the heat pump and install, add in an EV charger and $50k later I'm "green". There's some rebates involved but not enough to make it financially feasible for those who couldn't afford it anyways, so the rebates are mostly going to people who don't really need it. So IDK, maybe I'll stick with a gas furnace and regular AC system considering I don't have the $50k for the home upgrade right now.

I think all we can hope for is tech that progresses as quickly as possible for both energy production and storage. Right now I don't think your choice of EV vs ICE makes much of a difference. On Tesla, the more Elon tweets the less I want to buy anything he's selling, lol, what a clown!

 

[Joe Whip]

I agree completely about urban planning. During the Covid shutdowns with folks working from home, I enjoyed the reduced road noise levels, better air, nicer to go for a walk. That is what I enjoy so much about a city like London. Walkable areas, easy public transport via the Tube etc.

 

[Alrainbow]

I’m

too much no we can’t, not possible , forget it attitude here. I do not think that way.

ok so what way do you think any suggestions
Im not against green of the green is clean and not my money. Rex is correct but you don’t care it must be done ok. By who ? Who pays. We have hydrogen or pneumonia but why don’t we hear about this ?
ill tell you why it’s not a money scam project.
How can anyone think wind farms or solar is a viable alternative lol. It your thought is well it’s better than nothing. Well it is nothing and expensive too.

 

[Alrainbow]

Imagine if the government got behind having solar installed on homes and businesses. And building out the grid to accommodate it? I could develop tech to pull free clean energy out of the quantum field and there would be some against it.

It does and has its the only way we can afford it. This should tell you just how bad it is.

 

[Joe Whip]

Yeah, it’s bad. Sure. nonsense.

 

[Kingrex]

FWIW, I read today that Scotland just cut down 14 million trees to make room for wind farms. Perhaps you might like living in Scotland Rex

My exact point. Deforestation to make electrical power. You are so misguided.

 

[Steve williams]

sadly your plan will never work in America If you’ve ever driven the I10 Fwy into the desert you’ll see a wind farm that has been there for well over 40 years. In all that time it has probably expanded about 10% and that’s without the deforestation to which you advocate. How many forests do you think there are in America that removing 14M trees here there and everywhere will provide the energy you espouse.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't know what your trying to say Steve. What plan do I have???
What I do know is I am an avid outdoors enthusiast. I have seen area I use to hunt in the Columbia river gorge become covered with windmills. Its pretty barren under them. Life does not seem to like being near them. It use to be full of birds, deer and coyote. Not so much anymore. Mostly desert rats. I have also seen the damage dams create. They now count our fish runs in tens of thousands. Maybe 50K fish in the Columbia. They use to count them in the millions. Most of the localized species are extinct. Same fate for the whale that eat them.
I like to think of myself as being non specist. This is not our planet to stomp on and destroy. I feel our narrow view of the general environment, focusing on how to make more and more energy at any environmental cost is narrow minded and may have a more profound impact than any temperature extremes.
To me, all the hype and pomp around green energy is a distraction from the real issue. Overpopulation. Until you address the elephant in the room, your wasting critical time in resolving the real issues.
And in a way its unfortunate as a species we are so clever. It is allowing us to create a bubble that becomes larger and large and larger. But it going to burst at some point. The longer we wait, the more extreme the consequences.
Ok, I just told you my plan. And your right, it won't work. But neither will green energy. They are both doomed to fail as neither resolve the underlying issue of too many humans.

 

[Kingrex]

I just asked ChatGPT about deforestation. People should look for themselves and see what it has to say about the negative consequences. Then consider the importance of another Tesla on the roads.

 

[Kingrex]

Ok, I was wrong on the rooftop solar. Here is a curve plotted in Calif on 2021 where the utilitues are throttling the gas supplied electric to match the solar input. Gas is nice as you can ramp it up and down easy.
The expert that gave me the chart said they still have issues betseen 6 and 9 pm. I'm not sure why. He didn't say.

 

[Steve williams]

Hi Rex

I have had roof top solar now for 5 years. I have never once had a maintenance issue. When I planned my system my only request was that it be sufficiently big enough that it would provide enough electricity for my house and any future EV's such that I would never have to pay an electric billl again. I did this because our carrier is SDGE which is the most expensive in the nation......and sometimes costs as much as $0.62/kwh. We were getting bills during the summer of well over $1000 per month. I just could not keep throwing such money away monthly and no matter what we did t cut back our monthly bill was very high and stifling. Since we put in Solar 5 years ago I have never once had to pay an electric bill and since we purchased the 2 EV's we still continue to produce sufficient electricity to keep us energy neutral. That for me was a very liberating feeling as the cost kept going up every year. Granted we live in SoCal where inclement winters are not an issue. This was a decision made by my wife and I who're both retired and living on a fixed income. It was purely a matter of economies of scale. So similarly was our decision to get out of ICE cars as the cost of gas in California is probably the highest in the nation. At some point you have to forget about the pros and cons of solar and EV etc and make a decision as to what is right for you because no one is going to make your payments except you. I don't care about the speed and acceleration data of our cars nor do I care about the barbs hurled. Simply put there are pros and cons for every method and one has to decide which fits best for them, their pocket books and their life style. And finally no one owns your roof when you decide to sell. It is paid off through escrow. There are many ways to get into solar

1. Build your own grid. One member here has

2. Pay cash

3. Lease

4. Get a loan

There are many lending agencies now that all they do is finance solar installations. Also leasing would be the least desirable as you do not get the investment tax credit

The investment tax credit we got was substantial. I decided not to use my own money but got a 5 year loan as the rate was the best . There was no prepayment penalty and I paid mine off in a little over one year. Since that time my return on investment has been substantial, so much so that it hs allowed us great breathing room from the burden of high electric and high gas prices. People are knocking the Tesla batteries but IMO they are so far ahead of their competition that there is no competition right now, The battery has a warranty for 150,000 miles. I have owned some cars foe lengthy periods of time but never for 150,000 miles so I have zero concern as to comments made by the pundits. I understand the winter issue and the risk of snow on the panels and the risk of roof collapse but TBH a professional installer does this all the time. The other reason I chose Sun Power is their 25 year warranty on their panels, their panels have a 120% efficiency rating which no other company has, they warranty any damage done to the roof as a result if the solar panels (so you're covered in winter concerns) and finally they are the oldest Solar company in America and everything is made in the USA..in fact the panels are on the Mars Rover and continue to function.

Bottom line is I made a decision as to what works for me and my wife at this time in our lives. It is unreasonable IMHO to ever discount solar panels and I personally have never looked back. My only recommendation is to be sure your installer uses micro inverters at each panel rather than one large inverter that serves all panels. IMO there is zero difference when listening to music during the day when solar is pouring my house.It is completely indistinguishable from AC coming out of the walls