Further thoughts on the new Spectral amps' sound... Converging opinions?

[ack]

1rsw and I have been chatting recently offline about the 260 and 360 S2 amps, and we thought we'd spur some discussion from everyone else given our seemingly converging opinions on their sound... The following is an edited version of our discussion:

As you know, I finally bought a 260. Now, I am wondering if you may be wiser than most! I'll explain....


I have had it now for a few days and feel like I understand it pretty well, not totally though. I do think the detail is amazing, as is the general presence, tonal balance, "you are there'ness" and top to bottom coherence. I also think it is a tad lean. Being used to the 360S1, the intensity, scale, low end ability and overall impact is just a slight bit missing for me. Don't get me wrong, it's one of the best amps I have ever heard! I just wonder if the 360S2 may not be a better solution for me.


My system consists of Wilson Sasha's, Berkeley Alpha Series 2, MIT Oracle MA-X ic and Matrix 90 speaker cables. The Sasha's are a rough load and I think that is part of why the intensity is not the same as the mono's.


You are the only person who's comments mirror what I am experiencing. A dealer suggested the 260 over the 360S2 to at least 2 guys I know personally. A tech at that place that I know also bought the 260 over the mono's and steered me that way. Near everything I have read online says the same.....but I am not so sure that you are not the one who speaks closer to the truth. I remember your comments that talked about why you prefer the mono's for your application and it had to do with this very thing, the bottom end, intensity, scale, authority etc.


Yes, the 260 is newer and has the latest boards....but...the 360S2 was released in 2009, the 260 in 2010. That is not a big difference at all. The 360S2 is still very fresh technology, especially by Spectral's standard. We are not talking about dated stuff here at all, even with the upcoming 400's. They are Spectral's flagship amps and double the cost of the 260...they have to be better!


I have the opportunity to buy a set of 360S2 at a very fair price today. I need to choose and don't want to take a step back ...and pay an extra 5k for move backward. My gut says the mono's are better, especially given my speakers and listening habits.


Should I take the leap and dump the stereo amp??!!

First of all, welcome to the new - ACCURATE - Spectral sound. To cut to the chase, if I were you, I would go with the S2 monos for sure, exactly because of the authority, scale and intensity that I mentioned... The 260 is slightly more refined in the midrange, but doesn't really beat the monos overall.

Now let me go back to the new sound... Unlike the 250, 360S1 and others before the current generation, I find the new Spectral sound un-hifi, and extremely accurate. What you are experiencing with the 260 you will also experience with the new monos, over your older monos. The new Spectrals are not thin in the bass, rather they are not bloated in the bass. Therefore, I consider their older sound as more hifi than real music - I have posted this on WBF.

I know you like your MIT cables as per the recent thread we had on WBF, so I will say don't look to the 360 S2 monos to give you back all that bloated bass. You just need to get used to the new generation's accurate, music-like sound, where when the program calls for bass it will be there. You won't get oomph, just like you don't get bass oomph in Symphony Hall, but will get, for example, gigantic, life-size bass drum slams, a heavy organ pipe et al - but not more.

The previous generation had slam and excitement - even with studio recordings like Billy Idol's Rebel Yell. With the new ones, these recordings sound like they should - crap, and in need for equalization, as you would in your car. But when you play good recordings, you are taken aback rather by the realism not the bloated slam. This is why I find the new generation so accurate. If you get a chance, order the Sheffield Kodo drums CD, track 2 will blow you away and demonstrate what I mean by accuracy, control and scale in the bass. Your reaction will be: get that freaking thing out of my room.

I think you will eventually get to realize this is real sound. As for the dealer, there are always economics involved, and frankly, I trust my own ears more than theirs. I think you should buy the 360 S2 monos today and see for yourself. But be absolutely prepared with respect to the difference in the bottom end between them and your original monos. Two completely different sound-reproduction philosophies.

Not sure where to start, it's been a little overwhelming. I do feel like I made the right decision [he bought the S2 monos]. It's funny, I was talking with another guy who is very knowledgeable about Spectral, inside and out. His remarks were damn near word for word what you said. He commented on the significant change occurring with the series 2 360 and than an incremental move with the 260. He described the 260 as "slightly more liquid" but as you said, it has the same basic character as the 360 2.

I totally understand what you are talking about as far as the bass goes. Even with this stereo amp there were several moments when I was shocked at the bass output. It clearly is capable when called upon but does not care to add anything when not. To my ears, this is the speed that sets these amps apart from 99% of what is out there. They are capable of reacting to demand for any current so damn fast and stop equally as fast. Real special and real fun to listen to. I was also taken back by the vocal reproduction, especially with harmony. Some of the most real sounding vocal reproduction I have heard and beyond what I imagined it being able to do. Exciting!

It baffles me that there is not more discussion about these amps. They are beyond special. There is so much chatter on forums and in audio press about so many mediocre amplifiers and these go virtually unnoticed. I know the game with dollars, advertising etc but there is some reputable parts of the community and it shocks me that those folks miss Spectral completely.

And a final comment from me on vocals. I think 1rsw got it so right (and wait till you get the 30SS S2) - I had a friend over last weekend, and he could not believe how realistic a tenor and a soprano sounded...

And as far as being wiser than most... I am not sure; I appreciate the compliment, but the only certain thing is that I am not afraid to go out on a limb and express opinions that are often far from anyone else's I do that at work as well

 

[1rsw]

Ack...thanks for getting this up, just have not had a chance to share this stuff yet. Well, it has been an enlightening few days and honesty I still do not feel certain about which is the better solution. The more I listen to the 260, the more I am amazed. i have never heard an amplifier like this. It has everything anyone could want and more than I imagined. For me, it is the perfect stereo amplifier. Those are strong words because I am extremely critical of gear. I can pick apart the finest and find every flaw...it's a curse. Having said that, I am still happy with my decision to sell it and buy the mono's. More so because it has been m goal and I know I would always wonder but I could live with the 260 easily and be one happy dude.

Now I just need to get it sold quick! Too many amps, not enough cash

Funny, turns out there is no wrong answer here. I have been emailing with another Spectral guy who is going throught the same process in his head that I did. The more I think about it, there is no answer. Both the 260 and 360S2 are among the finest amps in the world, it is just impossible to screw that choice up!

 

[kee]

360 S2 is definitely overall a better amp, especially for tougher load. I have compared 360S2 vs 260 driving Avalon Isis. 360S2 is able to drive it with more authority, while still sounded very musical to me

However I find 260 give s richer mid range with more bloom. A 'perfect' spectral amp to me would be 260 sound with 360S2 power. Maybe 400 would be it...looking forward to hear the 400 once the dealer got it.

I'm currently using dmc30ss2/Oracle MA-X/Dma-260/Oracle Matrix HD90/Avalon Indra and I am vey happy with the sound. Dma-260 is powerful enough for the Indra as compared to Isis.

 

[ack]

After more discussions with 1rsw, I compared the 260 with the 360 S2's again using the Magico Q5s. Below are further excerpts from our discussion:

The midrange is definitely more forward in the 260, a little less veiled, more liquid, but I preferred the mono's presentation overall, exhibiting better depth cues; the 260 was a bit too forward and less 3D with these speakers, but I could be convinced their presentation is the winner.

The monos excelled in control and extension in the lower registers when needed, and both were astonishing in bass weight and pitch definition - and I mean thrilling! Something I am just not getting out of my woofers, as expected. I could live with either amp; it feels like the 400's will be the do-it-all amps.

This is also testament to the Q5's world-class status - I want these speakers; they are phenomenally correct, but lacking just a bit in overall resolution and top treble against my modified MLs. I had an extra-ordinarily lifelike audition with HDCD RR material, also using the 30SS S2 and the 4000SL player. The illusion was very real... an exceptional, world-class system.

You know, I was listening to a few tracks from Laura Viers "Troubled By The Fire" this morning and man, I am so astounded at how incredible my system sounds. These amps [the 360 S2's]....OMG these amps! We are some seriously blessed dudes. I feel like I want to call all my audio friends and drag them to the nearest Spectral dealer and force them to buy these 360S2. Guys have no idea what a good amp sounds like! Anyway, just wanted to share my audio epiphany with someone who knows I am so thrilled by these damn amps.

 

[1rsw]

Well it's been about a month now since I added the 360S2. I have spent a great deal of time optimizing things and now feel I have them doing what they should be doing...astounding me. One thing that seems to have made the most difference is the wiring of the outlet they are plugged in. I messed around with different outlets, even tried one of the MIT filtered outlets which did not match well but the biggest change came when I wired each side of the duplex with it's own hot and own breaker, ground going to the ground lug on the Zpowerbar for my front end. Wow, what a major improvement. I strongly encourage any of you guys with 360's to give it a try. I'd love to hear if any others get the same sort of impact. Pretty big step forward in imaging, depth, clarity, space...really everything and all from just giving each amp it's own power feed. I was impressed with these amps before but I am now much closer to just wowed by them. I have not heard Solutions, FM Acoustics or the other top tier so these are clearly the best amplifiers I have heard and by a large margin. I also am very comfortable with the decision to get the 360S2 vs the 260. There are some things I felt the 260 did better but as a whole the mono's are more complete but only if set up properly. I do not think I had them set up right before making this change to my outlet.

It's been a while since I posted here so wanted to provide a brief update. One day, if I can muster up the focus, I'll write a mini review.

 

[mullard88]

The power outlet that I plug my DMA 360 S2 into are ordinary but are directly connected to a 5,000 watt voltage regulator then to its own circuit breaker. The circuit breaker is in another room and the voltage regulator is just on top of the circuit breaker so it does not take up any space in my listening room and the voltage from the circuit breaker into the power outlets are regulated.

My DMA 360 S2 are plugged into their dedicated MIT Stablizers using MIT Oracle AC 1 power cords. Each MIT Stabilizer is then plugged into the power outlet using MIT Oracle AC2 power cords.

I use this same configuration for all my Spectral power amps from the vintage DMA 100 to the DMA 360 S2. This really brings out the most resolution with a very well lighted soundstage from the Spectral amps. I can not listen without the MIT Stablilizers and MIT AC2 power cords whenever I use Spectral amps as what is missing is too much. However, when I want dimmer lighting for the soundstage and more emotional impact, I switch out the MIT Oracle AC1 power cords with the Sensory Power power cords between the amps and the MIT Stablilizers.

 

[LL21]

Well it's been about a month now since I added the 360S2. I have spent a great deal of time optimizing things and now feel I have them doing what they should be doing...astounding me. One thing that seems to have made the most difference is the wiring of the outlet they are plugged in. I messed around with different outlets, even tried one of the MIT filtered outlets which did not match well but the biggest change came when I wired each side of the duplex with it's own hot and own breaker, ground going to the ground lug on the Zpowerbar for my front end. Wow, what a major improvement. I strongly encourage any of you guys with 360's to give it a try. I'd love to hear if any others get the same sort of impact. Pretty big step forward in imaging, depth, clarity, space...really everything and all from just giving each amp it's own power feed. I was impressed with these amps before but I am now much closer to just wowed by them. I have not heard Solutions, FM Acoustics or the other top tier so these are clearly the best amplifiers I have heard and by a large margin. I also am very comfortable with the decision to get the 360S2 vs the 260. There are some things I felt the 260 did better but as a whole the mono's are more complete but only if set up properly. I do not think I had them set up right before making this change to my outlet.

It's been a while since I posted here so wanted to provide a brief update. One day, if I can muster up the focus, I'll write a mini review.

an interesting read...congrats! Always great to read about other people's experiences in 'getting it right'. Yes, if you have time to do a mini review that would be helpful. Noted about the fact you may not have A/B'd to other SOTA equipment...but any comparisons you have made would be useful to those of us who have not been able to or cannot locally hear Spectral. Enjoy!

 

[ack]

Hospital grade Hubbell outlets, all equipment plugged into the same MIT Z Strip, Shunyata power cords. It surely makes a difference taming line noise, plus all the benefits of star grounding.

 

[1rsw]

Interesting that folks like the impact of the ZStabalizer's on the amps. Another Spectral guy I email with also uses them although plugged into adjacent outlets. I have tried using both the conditioners and filtered cords and do not like it, especially vs the current configuration I detailed above. I notice treble loses it's shimmer, vocals become muted and dull and just a general lack of air/space. To me, the difference is pretty significant and I do not think I would enjoy the amps nearly as much through power filters. I do use a ZPowerbar for my source (Berkeley Alpha DAC 2, Alpha USB, W7 server w/OWC HDD's) with excellent results. I also use Oracle Z3's for everything and find those cords to be the perfect mate with Spectral gear. I went through a significant number of cords to come to that conclusion ...Shunyata, Tara, Isoclean, Acoustic Revive (great stuff!), Nordost, all the MIT filtered cords and I'm sure 20 more. The Z3's just seem correct for me and thankfully that leaves me done with power cords!

Despite Spectral's notes about MIT power products in the manual, my experience has been if you can get good clean power to your amps then they are going to perform significantly better straight to the wall. This has been with a DMA 180S1, 360S1, 260 and 360S2 so pretty consistent with my system. Again, the front end is a whole different animal, especially digital.

lloydelee: I hear you, maybe I'll have some time this weekend to put together some more detailed thoughts on the 360S2. I've been trying to figure out how to put them into words and it's challenging, especially without sounding extreme and bordering on fanboy. I'm not new to this stuff, been at it for over 3 decades. The level of performance I am getting right now exceeds anything I every thought possible. There is a presence that is uncanny, an ability to articulate images/sound in space with depth and shape, the speed to stop/start information in what sounds like real time (that sounds simple but not many amps can do that). I also attribute some of what I am experiencing to the Berkeley products, Sasha's as well as the upper tier MIT products but the amps seem to be the main source of this presence.

 

[ack]

The Z Stabilizer is old technology and I found it colored long ago... nothing like unimpeded power. I also think the ZIII are probably the best match for these amps... Great to see you get the results I knew you would Yes, it's hard to review the current Spectral gear w/o coming off excessive and extreme, and it's equally hard to describe something as raw as this gear. Wait, there is more... wait till you try the equally raw Ortofon A90