General Question about Belt Drive Turntables

dminches

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Some of the current belt drive turntables have what I call motor and tonearm pods (for example, the Brinkmann Balance, J.Sikora Reference). It doesn't seem as though one or both are bolted down in any way since they seem to just sit on a platform. What prevents these from moving even the slightest amount? Any change to the motor position would affect the speed and any change to the tonearm position would affect the cartridge alignment.

Or maybe they just don't move and it is a non-issue. Just curious since I have never owned this type of belt drive design.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Some of the current belt drive turntables have what I call motor and tonearm pods (for example, the Brinkmann Balance, J.Sikora Reference). It doesn't seem as though one or both are bolted down in any way since they seem to just sit on a platform. What prevents these from moving even the slightest amount? Any change to the motor position would affect the speed and any change to the tonearm position would affect the cartridge alignment.

Or maybe they just don't move and it is a non-issue. Just curious since I have never owned this type of belt drive design.
bolting the motor to the plinth which also is connected to the platter has noise and vibration consequences that must be resolved. separate pods minimize that. my CS Port is one of those with a free standing Pod. you do adjust the string tension by adjusting the position of the Pod. in 5 years i've seen it needing adjustment a few times, mostly due to me getting behind the rack and accidentally bumping it in the close space.

part of my culture with the CS Port is checking speed with the built in strobe. and part of that is it taking 90 minutes for it to reach ideal speed. so i'm looking at this issue whenever i play that tt, and pod movement is just not any issue in this case. it's heavy and solid.

being around turntables, we are respectful of the delicacy of some of the pieces, so pods tend to be not messed with fundamentally in the normal use case. just my general observation. maybe rack surface tension and footer material are factors. some situations might be more likely to cause pod movement.
 
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PeterA

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Interesting questions for a designer to contemplate. Depending on the specific design and level of execution, I prefer a separate motor casing. The advantage is motor noise isolation and flexibility with placement.

I have also had both captive arm boards and I designed a DIY separate arm pod. In this case the separate arm pod allowed me to add a second arm to a one arm turntable design, so it was useful, but I prefer captive arm boards as long as there is good isolation from both the motor and the platter bearing noise.

Lately I have been experimenting with thread tension and thread length, so a separate motor housing is very useful. Much depends on the mass of the motor unit and how well it is isolated from the platform on which the turntable sits.

There are reasons to support the various approaches, and it all depends on the designer’s goals.
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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Some of the current belt drive turntables have what I call motor and tonearm pods (for example, the Brinkmann Balance, J.Sikora Reference). It doesn't seem as though one or both are bolted down in any way since they seem to just sit on a platform. What prevents these from moving even the slightest amount? Any change to the motor position would affect the speed and any change to the tonearm position would affect the cartridge alignment.

Or maybe they just don't move and it is a non-issue. Just curious since I have never owned this type of belt drive design.
My Kuzma XL DC TT's Motor Pod and Tonearm Tower don't move at all due to their pure static weight i.e. 10kg and 14kg respectively !
My Motor Pod and the Tonearm Tower I am currently using (I have two Tonearm Towers) are also at the back of my TT Platter's Bearing & Platform Unit so no chance of accidently knocking it (although even if I did, I doubt they would move unless I gave them a deliberate hard whack !)
 

Lagonda

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bolting the motor to the plinth which also is connected to the platter has noise and vibration consequences that must be resolved. separate pods minimize that. my CS Port is one of those with a free standing Pod. you do adjust the string tension by adjusting the position of the Pod. in 5 years i've seen it needing adjustment a few times, mostly due to me getting behind the rack and accidentally bumping it in the close space.

part of my culture with the CS Port is checking speed with the built in strobe. and part of that is it taking 90 minutes for it to reach ideal speed. so i'm looking at this issue whenever i play that tt, and pod movement is just not any issue in this case. it's heavy and solid.

being around turntables, we are respectful of the delicacy of some of the pieces, so pods tend to be not messed with fundamentally in the normal use case. just my general observation. maybe rack surface tension and footer material are factors. some situations might be more likely to cause pod movement.
I will do you one better ! My motor is bolted to the wall behind the TT. :) IMG_2507.png IMG_2508.png
 

Another Johnson

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Any change to the motor position would affect the speed.
This isn’t true. The speed is not supersensitive to motor position. When you pull the belt away from the platter, both sides of the belt have an increase in tension and you load the bearings more, but the driving torque (the difference in the tensions times the radius of the platter) is still the same unless you inordinately put the motor close enough to let the belt slip, or far enough away to increase the bearing friction load beyond the capability of the motor.

I’ve owned several TTs with external motor pods over the years. I have one now with three motor pods. I can move the pods small amounts individually or as a group and my 300Hz strobe still perfectly stops my speed checker disk with no precession or recession.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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This isn’t true. The speed is not supersensitive to motor position. When you pull the belt away from the platter, both sides of the belt have an increase in tension and you load the bearings more, but the driving torque (the difference in the tensions times the radius of the platter) is still the same unless you inordinately put the motor close enough to let the belt slip, or far enough away to increase the bearing friction load beyond the capability of the motor.

I’ve owned several TTs with external motor pods over the years. I have one now with three motor pods. I can move the pods small amounts individually or as a group and my 300Hz strobe still perfectly stops my speed checker disk with no precession or recession.
changes in motor position generally change the sound, but the speed might stay the same. it's a tuning process more than a right or wrong speed process.

my idler, the Esoteric T1, does exactly that in a calibrated way. there is a micrometer with 2mm of travel over 4 rotations, which varies the gap between the platter bottom and the magnetic drive wheel. the speed does not change, but the torque does....and the 'flavor' changes thusly.

these type adjustments matter more the higher the overall execution of the tt.

and the T1 idler has a separate motor pod, which slides under the plinth, and requires precise locating for the torque adjustment to work properly. it comes with a template to check the gap regularly to insure that the motor pod is in place. in a year I've actually had to adjust it twice. also critical to level the platter and check that, as it has a magnetic bearing which can develop yaw (heard as a very feint noise like a bearing knock between tracks) if it's not level. had to do that once other than when I broke down the system for my new racks. it's an easy process to level it with 4 leveling pods.
 
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Another Johnson

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changes in motor position generally change the sound, but the speed might stay the same. it's a tuning process more than a right or wrong speed process.

my idler, the Esoteric T1, does exactly that in a calibrated way. there is a micrometer with 2mm of travel over 4 rotations, which varies the gap between the platter bottom and the magnetic drive wheel. the speed does not change, but the torque does....and the 'flavor' changes thusly.

these type adjustments matter more the higher the overall execution of the tt.

and the T1 idler has a separate motor pod, which slides under the plinth, and requires precise locating for the torque adjustment to work properly. it comes with a template to check the gap regularly to insure that the motor pod is in place. in a year I've actually had to adjust it twice. also critical to level the platter and check that, as it has a magnetic bearing which can develop yaw (heard as a very feint noise like a bearing knock between tracks) if it's not level. had to do that once other than when I broke down the system for my new racks. it's an easy process to level it with 4 leveling pods.
As I’ve posted before … the biggest problem turntables have is their set up.

I’m not talking about moving pods centimeters. I’m talking about moving pods within a millimeter.

Of course there are guys who say they can hear changes in SRA of less than 1 degree. And VTF is given by some to three significant figures. Etc etc etc.

My external pod TT has a magnetic bearing and the reason for three motor pods is to load it symmetrically to avoid tilt.

The pods are on defined platforms. I’ve never found a difference if one, or all, pods were half a millimeter off center … maybe I should put more effort into listening.

FWIW, if you are tilting your magnetic bearing, motor placement would be more critical. I’ve never owned a single pod TT with magnetic bearing, although I’ve had assorted sleeve and thrust bearing designs with external motor.
 

Mike Lavigne

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As I’ve posted before … the biggest problem turntables have is their set up.
agree.
I’m not talking about moving pods centimeters. I’m talking about moving pods within a millimeter.
these are precision instruments and return the respect with superior performance.
Of course there are guys who say they can hear changes in SRA of less than 1 degree. And VTF is given by some to three significant figures. Etc etc etc.

My external pod TT has a magnetic bearing and the reason for three motor pods is to load it symmetrically to avoid tilt.

The pods are on defined platforms. I’ve never found a difference if one, or all, pods were half a millimeter off center … maybe I should put more effort into listening.

FWIW, if you are tilting your magnetic bearing, motor placement would be more critical. I’ve never owned a single pod TT with magnetic bearing, although I’ve had assorted sleeve and thrust bearing designs with external motor.
i think once we have a feel for the sensitive bits on our turntables these are reasonable things most times easy to do. it's just understanding cause and effect. our systems only give us results according to how sorted they are. i'm sure there are things going on in my system that will reveal themselves going forward as zero cost adjustments that i can add to my list. peeling another layer from the onion.
 

mtemur

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As mentioned on prior posts (@Mike Lavigne and @Another Johnson) and technically speaking changing motor’s location doesn’t change the speed. Speed is related with diameter ratio of pulley and platter that belt rides on. But anyway speed may still slightly change when you move motor tower due to other reasons. You can check speed easily before every listening session. So, it’s not a big problem.

On the contrary separating motor from the plinth is a very good thing. By doing that you can eliminate motor noise and more importantly it’s vibration reaching to platter. Motor should be mounted on an isolated separate tower.

On the other hand mounting tonearm on a separate tower is not a good idea. Unlike motor, when a tonearm tower moves slightly whole cartridge adjustment ruins. It might be a slight possibility for heavy towers but it’s still a possibility.

In terms of vibration isolation, separate tower usually doesn’t have as good isolation as the plinth. Motor vibration and noise as well as other vibrations in the room might reach to tonearm more easily when tonearm is mounted on a separate tower. Additionally when plinth and tonearm tower have their individual isolations then there will be a compliance between them, they will move at different frequencies when a vibration hits them. It’s similar situation like installing a rubber between tonearm base and armboard. That’s why almost all modern tonearms are hard mounted on arm boards without any elastomers. It’s because direct coupling of tonearm to the plinth as @PeterA recommends is beneficial. That’s why tonearm should be mounted on isolated plinth.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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As mentioned on prior posts (@Mike Lavigne and @Another Johnson) and technically speaking changing motor’s location doesn’t change the speed. Speed is related with diameter ratio of pulley and platter that belt rides on. But anyway speed may still slightly change when you move motor tower due to other reasons. You can check speed easily before every listening session. So, it’s not a big problem.

On the contrary separating motor from the plinth is a very good thing. By doing that you can eliminate motor noise and more importantly it’s vibration reaching to platter. Motor should be mounted on an isolated separate tower.

On the other hand mounting tonearm on a separate tower is not a good idea. Unlike motor, when a tonearm tower moves slightly whole cartridge adjustment ruins. It might be a slight possibility for heavy towers but it’s still a possibility.

In terms of vibration isolation, separate tower usually doesn’t have as good isolation as the plinth. Motor vibration and noise as well as other vibrations in the room might reach to tonearm more easily when tonearm is mounted on a separate tower. Additionally when plinth and tonearm tower have their individual isolations then there will be a compliance between them, they will move at different frequencies when a vibration hits them. It’s similar situation like installing a rubber between tonearm base and armboard. That’s why almost all modern tonearms are hard mounted on arm boards without any elastomers. It’s because direct coupling tonearm to plinth as @PeterA recommends is beneficial. That’s why tonearm should be mounted on isolated plinth.
i have 2 turntables with the arm boards hard connected to the plinth, the Esoteric T1 and Wave Kinetics NVS. and another turntable, the CS Port LFT1, with a separate arm pod/linear tracking arm. i've owned the CS Port LFT1 for 5 years now, and while i agree generally with your view on separate tone arm pods, i've had zero issue with this potential concern. and do check my cartridge alignment from time to time and it fully checks out.

maybe the nature of a linear tracker, the way it cues, and the air bearing minimizing mechanical stress on the arm mount, along with the mass and broad long chassis of the arm pod, contribute to it's stability. much of the arm board is granite; it weighs 30-40 pounds by itself. i also use a clamp and tower attached to the rack, to unweight the quite heavy tonearm cable so there is zero pull on the tower from that source.

there is a choice of a hard mount on the plinth instead of a separate pod, but it's said to not quite sound as good. not heard it myself. isolation from plinth/platter vibration can potentially improve performance assuming proper alignment. not saying this is what is happening, i don't know and have not tested for it myself.

as always the level of execution can somewhat overcome limitations said to exist according to design dogma.

YMMV.
 
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PeterA

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As mentioned on prior posts (@Mike Lavigne and @Another Johnson) and technically speaking changing motor’s location doesn’t change the speed. Speed is related with diameter ratio of pulley and platter that belt rides on. But anyway speed may still slightly change when you move motor tower due to other reasons. You can check speed easily before every listening session. So, it’s not a big problem.

On the contrary separating motor from the plinth is a very good thing. By doing that you can eliminate motor noise and more importantly it’s vibration reaching to platter. Motor should be mounted on an isolated separate tower.

On the other hand mounting tonearm on a separate tower is not a good idea. Unlike motor, when a tonearm tower moves slightly whole cartridge adjustment ruins. It might be a slight possibility for heavy towers but it’s still a possibility.

In terms of vibration isolation, separate tower usually doesn’t have as good isolation as the plinth. Motor vibration and noise as well as other vibrations in the room might reach to tonearm more easily when tonearm is mounted on a separate tower. Additionally when plinth and tonearm tower have their individual isolations then there will be a compliance between them, they will move at different frequencies when a vibration hits them. It’s similar situation like installing a rubber between tonearm base and armboard. That’s why almost all modern tonearms are hard mounted on arm boards without any elastomers. It’s because direct coupling tonearm to plinth as @PeterA recommends is beneficial. That’s why tonearm should be mounted on isolated plinth.


I learned a lot from my experiments with elastic belt to non elastic belt to dental floss to different non stretch threads. They all changed the sound I heard. I prefer the thin, strong special thread that ddk sent me. I concluded that the connection between motor pulley and platter is critical to the sound. The less influence the motor has on the platter, the better, at least in my case with a very high mass platter with very low rotational friction.

To further this observation and increase my knowledge on the subject, I am now embarking on a series of experiments with thread tension and thread length. Contrary to what others have mentioned, I have indeed observed changes in speed, both in terms of absolute speed accuracy (33.333RPM) and in speed consistency (+/- 00.002RPM), with very small changes in motor position. This is because a slight change in position (distance between motor pulley and platter) changes the tension of the thread. With any change in thread tension, I observe a change in speed. To compensate, I adjust the speed control on the motor to reach the right combination of speed and tension.

The looser the tread, the better the sound, at least in my application. My conclusion is that even though the motor is isolated from the turntable base and platter, some small resonance travels along the tread to reach the platter. In my case, the platter will free spin for 30 minutes before stopping, so very minimal influence from the motor is necessary to maintain constant and consistent speed. The RoadRunner tachometer readout is to three places. It is measured only once per revolution, but there is no control on the motor based on this readout. I can see exactly much changes in thread tension affect speed. And it is audible.

Encouraged by what I heard with lower thread tension, I decided to adjust the length of the thread. My separate motor unit makes it easy to move the driving pulley and alter its distance from the platter. Thread length, as well as its tension, affects its resonant frequency, and thus the influence of the motor on the platter. This is audible. My thread is now loose and long and after some adjustments to the tension and motor speed, I have accurate and consistent speed again.

Even though the motor unit itself is isolated and sits on a massive steel plate which itself is isolated from the separate from the differently isolated steel plate the turntable bass sits on, the further distance seems to help with noise from the motor. The loose, long thread, also reduces the motor's noise and influence further.

The resulting sound is more natural, especially in the bass. This then affects higher frequencies in terms of clarity. The sound opened up, and with the lower noise, I hear more information. I am really pretty surprised at how much of a difference this makes.

I ran into an interesting thing though as I moved the motor away from the platter. The thread angle changed, resulting in the thread rubbing against two of the arm posts. I wondered if this affected the sound because of the friction and angle change. The tension was loose and the thread was thin, but I moved the motor and rotated the turntable so that the thread no longer rubbed against the arm posts. Sure enough, this was audible too. In the photo below you can just see how the turntable is rotated and that I moved the motor to the front of the top shelf so the thread would have a clear path.

So I agree that set up matters a lot with turntable performance. I now appreciate the flexibility that my separate motor allows. I agree with those who prefer captive arm boards. Any movement here is detrimental to alignment and to sound. One can address the arm isolation issue with platter bearing design and motor isolation to reduce noise traveling to the arm.

IMG_6524.JPG

IMG_6525.JPG
 

Salectric

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@PeterA Your photo reminds me of what some Platine Verdier owners did in years past. They had the motor pod several feet away from the platter, often on a separate rack, and it was connected to the platter with a long, loose thread. The platter on the Platine Verdier also has an air bearing. Maybe that's a factor. The Walker Proscenium also has an air bearing and it uses a flexy silk ribbon as drive belt.

With my Galibier, which is somewhat similar but does not use an air bearing, I prefer a tighter coupling between the motor pod and platter. I also prefer a tighter belt, actually a mylar tape that has close to zero stretch.

Regardless of preference, there's no question the type of belt and the belt tension have a significant impact on sound quality.
 

PeterA

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Regardless of preference, there's no question the type of belt and the belt tension have a significant impact on sound quality.

I completely agree. Alternative designs where motors are mounted to the plinth have their advantages Like a smaller footprint and ease of use and convenience, but they usually lack flexibility and opportunity for experimentation.

I am finding that a major design consideration is the influence the motor has on the platter. Stable and accurate speed are not all that matters.

Hi mass thread drive is a completely different approach from something like direct drive with lighter platter and constant correction. Both have their advocates for a variety of reasons.
 
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on my Melco I use a vintage Gutman silk thread two rounds over both pulley and platter with their special knot as per Melco´s instruction
any other materials or solutions doesn´t sound as good
 

Lagonda

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Peter it is probably similar to the kevlar enforced thread you got from David. :) Same philosophy and identical not ! IMG_2513.png
 
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