Golden Gate DAC arrives.

[Blizzard]

It is indeed, but I am not sure the stock Amanero is a big weak link. Theoretically a better clock cant hurt and will likely only be better. I am not hearing any signs of Jitter on my DSD, for example, so a $500 Amanero upgrade, plus the work to solder the tiny point (PITA, as I have done it once) is a bit of a job.
i would certainly like to hear feedback from anyone who tried this!

$485 includes the Amanero, and it would be a 5 minute job installing it. I wouldn't use the Amanero in stock form in a $1000 DAC, let alone a $15500 DAC.

 

[Blizzard]

Its straight forward if you are comfortable with small solder points (like the guys who repair cellphones). I had to do it once and it was a miracle that it worked. Serious solder skillz needed. I think even the Lampi guys mess up 1 in 5 or so. LoL

I bet my wife who never used a soldering iron in her life could do it blindfolded if not send it to me and I'll do it for a low fee of $3000. I can guarantee you this mod would make a larger difference than going from a B7 to the GG.

I guess once you have a cult following, you can get away with anything. Add $200 worth of caps and charge $5000 extra. Yet completely neglect the areas that would really make the biggest difference.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I bet my wife who never used a soldering iron in her life could do it blindfolded if not send it to me and I'll do it for a low fee of $3000. I can guarantee you this mod would make a larger difference than going from a B7 to the GG.

I guess once you have a cult following, you can get away with anything. Add $200 worth of caps and charge $5000 extra. Yet completely neglect the areas that would really make the biggest difference.

Bliz,

have you heard a Golden Gate or B7? have you compared them side by side?

just trying to understand how intimate you are with this gear.

thanks.

 

[Blizzard]

Bliz,

have you heard a Golden Gate or B7? have you compared them side by side?

just trying to understand how intimate you are with this gear. thanks.

Mike,
I have a Amanero, and I've listened to it many times, as well as talked to many manufacturers who have experience with it.

When you have a very good understanding on how DSD based systems work, you also know that oscillator phase noise is the #1 factor that determines how accurate the DSD reproduction will be. You don't need to jump into a burning pit of embers to understand it will burn you, once you have this knowledge.

Your simply not going to get better performance out of lower quality high phase noise clocks, than ultra low jitter, low phase noise clocks. Also, there's absolutely no galvanic isolation in the Amanero to eliminate noise from connected computer.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
I have a Amanero, and I've listened to it many times, as well as talked to many manufacturers who have experience with it.

When you have a very good understanding on how DSD based systems work, you also know that oscillator phase noise is the #1 factor that determines how accurate the DSD reproduction will be. You don't need to jump into a burning pit of embers to understand it will burn you, once you have this knowledge.

Your simply not going to get better performance out of lower quality high phase noise clocks, than ultra low jitter, low phase noise clocks. Also, there's absolutely no galvanic isolation in the Amanero to eliminate noise from connected computer.

 

[Audiocrack]

I don't want to jump to any brief listening conclusions but I have a very wide smile on my face...

So I suppose that we agree that the new pcm application of the GG dac is really a big step forward ....

And I 'cleaned' my pm box.

 

[Blizzard]

Ted Smith does a good job here on explaining why jitter matters. Especially with DSD.

The laws of physics apply to all manufacturers, not just some.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7FyKVZ9D3E0

 

[wisnon]

There's boards for sale on the diyaudio forum link. Yes clocks can be expensive. For instance the clocks used for the critical clocking the GG uses from the Amanero, cost about $1 a piece. Where premium clocks like a Crystek 957 can cost 30 times that @ $30 a piece. This may be a deal breaker for someone with $15500 into a DAC.

I know of $1,000 clocks. How much does a Neutron Star clock cost..certainly NOT $30!

 

[wisnon]

$485 includes the Amanero, and it would be a 5 minute job installing it. I wouldn't use the Amanero in stock form in a $1000 DAC, let alone a $15500 DAC.

You have never even heard the Dac yet you pontificate??? LoL

It si NOT a 5 minute job. Sorry. i have installed a new Amanero (yes I am a total amateur) and it took all night. the holes are tiny and you need extreme precision to ensure the traces dont get joined by excess solder. you also need 25 year old eysight or good loups!

 

[wisnon]

I bet my wife who never used a soldering iron in her life could do it blindfolded if not send it to me and I'll do it for a low fee of $3000. I can guarantee you this mod would make a larger difference than going from a B7 to the GG.

I guess once you have a cult following, you can get away with anything. Add $200 worth of caps and charge $5000 extra. Yet completely neglect the areas that would really make the biggest difference.

You are indeed clueless. I have been to the factory in Poland and seen what is inside (I dont have to guess or speculate). i dont have to be an armchair expert. sorry, but you are just blowing steam here Blizz.

 

[wisnon]

Mike,
I have a Amanero, and I've listened to it many times, as well as talked to many manufacturers who have experience with it.

When you have a very good understanding on how DSD based systems work, you also know that oscillator phase noise is the #1 factor that determines how accurate the DSD reproduction will be. You don't need to jump into a burning pit of embers to understand it will burn you, once you have this knowledge.

Your simply not going to get better performance out of lower quality high phase noise clocks, than ultra low jitter, low phase noise clocks. Also, there's absolutely no galvanic isolation in the Amanero to eliminate noise from connected computer.

Who has true galvanic isolation? John Swenson already explained that unless you use optical or GMR, galvanic isolation is a futile myth. Even the MUSIOC signal itslef, the thing you want will carry noise with it. He posted a detailed explanation on the CA forum and it all made sense. To do it correctly will be extremely expensive!

So Lukasz does not have good DSD understanding? So why does his DSD solution get such wide acclaim? What Amanero firmware is he using? Tell me, since you seem to know it all. LoL

 

[wisnon]

Ted Smith does a good job here on explaining why jitter matters. Especially with DSD.

The laws of physics apply to all manufacturers, not just some.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7FyKVZ9D3E0

Yet still the Lampi DSD CRUSHED the DirectStream when ALrainbow and I spent a daty evaluating them in Summer 2014. AL owns an MSB Platinum stack with upgraded clocks (retail $35K), a Big7 dac, a Big7 HeadDac recently upgraded to the new R2R PCM, a Chord Hugo, a DirectStream, ad Audio GD Master 7 and a Mytek Stereo 192.

The Big7 and the MSB trounced the Hugo and the DStream in both PCM and DSD. DSD was a HUGE difference. Reportedly, the DS got 1 or 2 firmware upgrades since then that has improved performance, but AL tells me it STILL trails badly in DSD. Ted made a blunder, IMHO by keeping a common input and so PCM and DSD travels the same pathway. NOT good for the delicate DSD signal to go thru the FPGA. That is where I think jitter sensitivity matters. DSD hates "processing".

So yeah, upgraded clocks cant hurt, may help, but IMHO is NOT the obvious weak link in the DSD plkayback chain. In other words, there are lower hanging fruit in the good DSD playback chain and my ears confirm that.

In summary, I would love to hear what the clock mod would do, but I dont consider it the must have that you do and it certainly is not the panacea that will magically CURE DSD. Its not like Lampi DSD is broken...have you ever heard it?

 

[Blizzard]

I know of $1,000 clocks. How much does a Neutron Star clock cost..certainly NOT $30!

The Dexa neutron star clock doesn't even come with a phase noise plot. I question that products value. Any clock that sells for over $500 should come with a phase noise plot. Even the $30 Crysteks have a phase noise plot.

Beside we are talking about the $1 clock the GG uses to clock the jitter sensitive DSD data. Even reclocked with a $30 Crystek 957 would make a drastic improvement. Let alone the noise isolation.

 

[Blizzard]

You have never even heard the Dac yet you pontificate??? LoL

It si NOT a 5 minute job. Sorry. i have installed a new Amanero (yes I am a total amateur) and it took all night. the holes are tiny and you need extreme precision to ensure the traces dont get joined by excess solder. you also need 25 year old eysight or good loups!

Ok 5 minute job for most people. It's not difficult. Ever hear of solder paste? Poke the wires through the holes, spread a bit of solder paste on, hit with a hot air gun. The solder automatically beads up on the joints perfectly within seconds.

 

[Blizzard]

Who has true galvanic isolation? John Swenson already explained that unless you use optical or GMR, galvanic isolation is a futile myth. Even the MUSIOC signal itslef, the thing you want will carry noise with it. He posted a detailed explanation on the CA forum and it all made sense. To do it correctly will be extremely expensive!

So Lukasz does not have good DSD understanding? So why does his DSD solution get such wide acclaim? What Amanero firmware is he using? Tell me, since you seem to know it all. LoL

I never said it was a crappy DAC, I'm just saying there's a lot of room for improvement in the clocking department. Even if he used custom firmware (which he doesn't) it's not going to make the clocks have less jitter.

 

[Blizzard]

Yet still the Lampi DSD CRUSHED the DirectStream when ALrainbow and I spent a daty evaluating them in Summer 2014. AL owns an MSB Platinum stack with upgraded clocks (retail $35K), a Big7 dac, a Big7 HeadDac recently upgraded to the new R2R PCM, a Chord Hugo, a DirectStream, ad Audio GD Master 7 and a Mytek Stereo 192.

The Big7 and the MSB trounced the Hugo and the DStream in both PCM and DSD. DSD was a HUGE difference. Reportedly, the DS got 1 or 2 firmware upgrades since then that has improved performance, but AL tells me it STILL trails badly in DSD. Ted made a blunder, IMHO by keeping a common input and so PCM and DSD travels the same pathway. NOT good for the delicate DSD signal to go thru the FPGA. That is where I think jitter sensitivity matters. DSD hates "processing".

So yeah, upgraded clocks cant hurt, may help, but IMHO is NOT the obvious weak link in the DSD plkayback chain. In other words, there are lower hanging fruit in the good DSD playback chain and my ears confirm that.

In summary, I would love to hear what the clock mod would do, but I dont consider it the must have that you do and it certainly is not the panacea that will magically CURE DSD. Its not like Lampi DSD is broken...have you ever heard it?

I've experimented with lots of clocks. This is why I know 1st hand the difference clocks can make. With DSD, better clocks make an even greater difference. This is not a myth, it's common knowledge in the DAC business that lower jitter sounds better.

 

[wisnon]

I never said it was a crappy DAC, I'm just saying there's a lot of room for improvement in the clocking department. Even if he used custom firmware (which he doesn't) it's not going to make the clocks have less jitter.

Hahaha, you have sooo much to learn.

How can you make such statement WHEN YOU DONT KNOW?

You know what you know, but dont extend it futher than that.

Solder paste? Better make sure you dont short out the solder point with overlapping solder joints.

I cant say which clocks are best, VCOCXO or whatever and better clocks will make some improvements, but not if they are not on the critical path. Again, you have to take a system view and consider wwhat is the biggest obstacle.

From the limited audition I had with properly setup and fed Bughead…I am now on the software bandwagon. I now know my hardware is NOT the weakest link.

BTW, how is your bespoke system going? Is there a thread for that to keep interested people up to date?

 

[wisnon]

The Dexa neutron star clock doesn't even come with a phase noise plot. I question that products value. Any clock that sells for over $500 should come with a phase noise plot. Even the $30 Crysteks have a phase noise plot.

Beside we are talking about the $1 clock the GG uses to clock the jitter sensitive DSD data. Even reclocked with a $30 Crystek 957 would make a drastic improvement. Let alone the noise isolation.

OK, so a $35 PCB and a $30 Crystek = $485 how?

In any case, we BOTH know the clog is only controlling the Power supply, which is where the REAL magic is. Come up with a killer recc for the clock power supply, will ya?

PM me your tel number and we can more efficiently thrash this out one day…should be a fun call.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

So I suppose that we agree that the new pcm application of the GG dac is really a big step forward ....

And I 'cleaned' my pm box.

Hi Rudolph,

I believe that the new r2r PCM implementation (based on listening last night) is a significant improvement over my original PCM engine. I experienced:

> Great vividness and much more presence
> Signficantly more resolution
> More dynamic and propulsive bass

Together these bring it very close to the dsd performance but I still need a lot more listening time to draw final conclusions. The dsd engine always had this spooky clean resolution of the finest details yet with musicality and tone to die for - this PCM engine achieves the same trick. I am so thrilled because it opens up new options regarding necessity of upsampling to dsd of which I was a proponent - I need more time in order to reach any final conclusion but either way I am *very* happy. Hats off to Lukasz.

 

[Blizzard]

Hahaha, you have sooo much to learn.

How can you make such statement WHEN YOU DONT KNOW?

You know what you know, but dont extend it futher than that.

Solder paste? Better make sure you dont short out the solder point with overlapping solder joints.

I cant say which clocks are best, VCOCXO or whatever and better clocks will make some improvements, but not if they are not on the critical path. Again, you have to take a system view and consider wwhat is the biggest obstacle.

From the limited audition I had with properly setup and fed Bughead…I am now on the software bandwagon. I now know my hardware is NOT the weakest link.

BTW, how is your bespoke system going? Is there a thread for that to keep interested people up to date?

Only an idiot would bridge the connections together with solder, and a bigger idiot would turn it on after and short it out. Besides the Amanero header plugs right into to board, and the reclocker connects to the DAC board with plug in U.FL connectors.

If this is too advanced to do, any electronics repair shop can do it for probably 1/2 hour labor cost.

Now clocks aren't critical? I have soooo much to learn???

I'm working on a couple systems at the moment. I'll share what I have once it's ready.