Golden Gate DAC arrives.

[flyer]

A question for all GG owners here. Do you use a separate preamp in combination with the GG? What made you decide to use a separate preamp? Or the preamp functionality of the GG with volume control? Sablon Audio already informed me how the volume control works (thanks!). I am trying to make up my mind wether I should go with a GG with volume control, while I currently use an old but still well functioning Classe Omega Pre MKII...

Reasons I can think of are less interconnects, one power cable less, more space in my rack. On the other hand, with my previous DAC (dCS Paganini) the addition of the Classe was well worth it.

A customer of mine has the Lampi GG with a volume control and he tried his system (*) with/without the Aries Cerat Impera II preamp and he clearly and immediately recognized the value of the Impera so he has one on order now. Next test may be putting his GG next to the Aries Kassandra...

Even on a personal note, I used to have the Totaldac Twelve and it was definitely better with the Aries Cerat preamp.


(*) same customer previously replaced, with a decision taken after just a few seconds of listening, the Lampizator monoblock amps with the Aries Cerat Concero 65 amplifiers

 

[bonzo75]

A customer of mine has the Lampi GG with a volume control and he tried his system (*) with/without the Aries Cerat Impera II preamp and he clearly and immediately recognized the value of the Impera so he has one on order now. Next test may be putting his GG next to the Aries Kassandra...

Even on a personal note, I used to have the Totaldac Twelve and it was definitely better with the Aries Cerat preamp.


(*) same customer previously replaced, with a decision taken after just a few seconds of listening, the Lampizator monoblock amps with the Aries Cerat Concero 65 amplifiers

I think all dacs are better with a preamp, I also preferred the Jadis JPL and Shindo Giscours in the chain, and I don't even like the latter pre. Some people prefer them without though. Also, when I had the lower level Lampi (5) it was balanced, not SE, and then I could not hear a difference between having the Ar Ref 3 in the chain and not having one. Different system.

The compare will be interesting. Also can you please check which valves he uses?

 

[flyer]

Having had the AR Ref 3 in my system for test, as well as the Ref 5 SE, I am not totally surprised you didn't hear (enough of) a difference.

I asked about the tubes he uses in his GG but can't remember his answer and now he is away on a business trip till March.

Anyway, it is not the type of customer that will be trying different kinds of tubes, he is not an audiophile and expects stuff to sound good upon delivery, certainly at the price they are being sold... reason why I doubt he ever bothered changing the tubes supplied with his GG.

 

[wisnon]

The VC for many people is there to have a remote control for input switching....not for vol. attenuation...though it is quite good for that. I would not expect it to beat a top class preamp though, as those normally can do more than unity gain. The Aries preamp is built by another tube/electronics fanatic (Stavros) so should be very good.

 

[Legolas]

I m in the UK and also Spain.

 

[Alrainbow]

Using a preamp is an option for all
Of us. It's about choice for some and must have for others. The less is more with a preamp has leaks and if you have more than one source as I do what then. Some preamps are worse but for reseans not an accident.

 

[RubenV.]

A customer of mine has the Lampi GG with a volume control and he tried his system (*) with/without the Aries Cerat Impera II preamp and he clearly and immediately recognized the value of the Impera so he has one on order now. Next test may be putting his GG next to the Aries Kassandra...

Even on a personal note, I used to have the Totaldac Twelve and it was definitely better with the Aries Cerat preamp.


(*) same customer previously replaced, with a decision taken after just a few seconds of listening, the Lampizator monoblock amps with the Aries Cerat Concero 65 amplifiers

I also believe an external preamp has an edge over a dac with preamp section. I always thought that adding more to the signal chain would end up in less quality. Untill I had the chance to try out an ARC REF5SE together with a dCS Paganini. Allthough differences were slim, the system delivered more PRAT. I eventually ended up buying a Classe Omega Pre MKII and paired with the Paganini with good results. I can imagine the Impera II will yield even better results. Aries Cerat is really something special. And you have a dedicated listening room I can only dream of. While it is already some time ago, I remain impressed

I wonder how the GG performs in comparison to the Kassandre, so if the test takes place, don't forget to post your impressions here.

 

[Legolas]

I may be an oddball case. My DAC has transformers on the output so the stout impedance is very low and can drive interconnects without an issue. My DAC is effectively an M6 pre-amplifier with a digital board so not a normal DAC maybe?

 

[flyer]

And you have a dedicated listening room I can only dream of. While it is already some time ago, I remain impressed

I wonder how the GG performs in comparison to the Kassandre, so if the test takes place, don't forget to post your impressions here.

Thanks for the compliment on the listening room, it is nice to listen in ...

will not forget to post the impressions of the comparison when it takes place but won't be able to happen any time soon as the owner of the GG is away till March.

 

[flyer]

I may be an oddball case. My DAC has transformers on the output so the stout impedance is very low and can drive interconnects without an issue. My DAC is effectively an M6 pre-amplifier with a digital board so not a normal DAC maybe?

Well, how would you define a 'normal DAC' , certainly in that price range

A low output impedance is one part of the equation but not the only one. With my Twelve I was for a long time convinced that without a preamp it worked fine (how happy was I then...) until I found out that Vincent from Totaldac himself was always listening to it via a preamp and we did A/B then... why, oh why, did I go there and let myself be tempted . It then took me almost a year to find a brand and model with the best VFM. But I am much happier now with the sound!

 

[Legolas]

Well, how would you define a 'normal DAC' , certainly in that price range

A low output impedance is one part of the equation but not the only one. With my Twelve I was for a long time convinced that without a preamp it worked fine (how happy was I then...) until I found out that Vincent from Totaldac himself was always listening to it via a preamp and we did A/B then... why, oh why, did I go there and let myself be tempted . It then took me almost a year to find a brand and model with the best VFM. But I am much happier now with the sound!

I respect what Vincent has done with his discrete boards, but I am unsure / convinced the line stage of his DACs is anything special. The tube DAC he dies has a very simple / weak line stage. The Twelve has no gain stage as 'enough voltage' with the extra conversion resistors. The integrity of the gain stage in many DACs is a bit suspect IMO. I have said many times, IMO a DAC is basically a pre-amplifier with a DAC board. Many DACs have pitifully weak line stages and poor power supplies, obsessing on the chip set and other aspects. I would say the digital section is 35% of the final sound. The Lampizator Golden Gate is a DAC I would say has a good power supply and gain stage and the fact it has tubes is nice.

 

[LL21]

Well, how would you define a 'normal DAC' , certainly in that price range

A low output impedance is one part of the equation but not the only one. With my Twelve I was for a long time convinced that without a preamp it worked fine (how happy was I then...) until I found out that Vincent from Totaldac himself was always listening to it via a preamp and we did A/B then... why, oh why, did I go there and let myself be tempted . It then took me almost a year to find a brand and model with the best VFM. But I am much happier now with the sound!

If you can reveal, which preamp does Vincent from Totaldac use? Curious.

 

[flyer]

I respect what Vincent has done with his discrete boards, but I am unsure / convinced the line stage of his DACs is anything special. The tube DAC he dies has a very simple / weak line stage. The Twelve has no gain stage as 'enough voltage' with the extra conversion resistors. The integrity of the gain stage in many DACs is a bit suspect IMO. I have said many times, IMO a DAC is basically a pre-amplifier with a DAC board. Many DACs have pitifully weak line stages and poor power supplies, obsessing on the chip set and other aspects. I would say the digital section is 35% of the final sound. The Lampizator Golden Gate is a DAC I would say has a good power supply and gain stage and the fact it has tubes is nice.

I agree the obsession is sometimes too much geared towards chips and alike. You are right on a good DAC needing many elements of a preamp, this uncovers the reason why the Kassandra is the heaviest of them with such advanced tube-driven psu.

 

[bonzo75]

I respect what Vincent has done with his discrete boards, but I am unsure / convinced the line stage of his DACs is anything special. The tube DAC he dies has a very simple / weak line stage. The Twelve has no gain stage as 'enough voltage' with the extra conversion resistors. The integrity of the gain stage in many DACs is a bit suspect IMO. I have said many times, IMO a DAC is basically a pre-amplifier with a DAC board. Many DACs have pitifully weak line stages and poor power supplies, obsessing on the chip set and other aspects. I would say the digital section is 35% of the final sound. The Lampizator Golden Gate is a DAC I would say has a good power supply and gain stage and the fact it has tubes is nice.

Actually, you are probably pretty spot on. Most techies who like Lampi have told me its the analog and power making the difference, and probably why I find other dacs sound - digital. While the R2R sounds better than the older amanero, those who loved the Lampi loved it either way, pointing to the fact that the power supply, analog, and the DHT was making the difference.

 

[flyer]

At the time it used to be the Voxativ pre. Since then he issued the SE upgrade which basically is adding a ss output stage. I haven't heard the SE version though.

Best.

 

[Legolas]

I agree the obsession is sometimes too much geared towards chips and alike. You are right on a good DAC needing many elements of a preamp, this uncovers the reason why the Kassandra is the heaviest of them with such advanced tube-driven psu.

Here is my DAC 5 and an M6 pre-amplifier for comparison. I believe the main difference in the design of these units is the amount of step-down on the output transformers. But the M6 at 12 o'clock would be super loud, I would guess my DAC would roughly equal that line level. If I play music at 1'oclock or more on my Passive, the neighbours would be banging on the door. To get a passive system to work well it needs the output impedance to be low on the DAC, the current supply to the line stage needs to be good, and the tube or solid state stage needs to be able to handle the interconnects i.e. capacitance aspect. My interconnects are 1.5 meters from DAC to Passive to Power amp inclusive. Also the Power amp needs to have roughly a 20 times impedance of the output. If there is an impedance mismatch the bass can vanish and it can sound tipped up. I have bass in spades, so it must be close to the ideal match? Not by design I must say. With my Audio Note pre in the chain it sounded slower and a bit too heavy for my system.

 

[flyer]

View attachment 30541View attachment 30542
Here is my DAC 5 and an M6 pre-amplifier for comparison. I believe the main difference in the design of these units is the amount of step-down on the output transformers. But the M6 at 12 o'clock would be super loud, I would guess my DAC would roughly equal that line level. If I play music at 1'oclock or more on my Passive, the neighbours would be banging on the door. To get a passive system to work well it needs the output impedance to be low on the DAC, the current supply to the line stage needs to be good, and the tube or solid state stage needs to be able to handle the interconnects i.e. capacitance aspect. My interconnects are 1.5 meters from DAC to Passive to Power amp inclusive. Also the Power amp needs to have roughly a 20 times impedance of the output. If there is an impedance mismatch the bass can vanish and it can sound tipped up. I have bass in spades, so it must be close to the ideal match? Not by design I must say. With my Audio Note pre in the chain it sounded slower and a bit too heavy for my system.

Very nice indeed! On the DAC having/needing (pre)amp functionality: my Kassandra has enough power to drive a 101dB efficient horn speaker as it has 0.7W driving power

 

[Legolas]

Very nice indeed! On the DAC having/needing (pre)amp functionality: my Kassandra has enough power to drive a 101dB efficient horn speaker as it has 0.7W driving power

I was reading about the Kassandra the other week. It does seem in an Audio Note vein. I don't mean a rip off. I mean a similar topology and a route to a 'non digital' sound. AD1865 chips, the tube output, I/V transformers and I think it has output transformers as well? It looks very well thought out and great build quality. I would love to hear one. Can I ask, did you hear it first or a leap of faith? I can't get a demo of it in the UK.

This is all good. I am convinced a tube DAC has lots to offer, and can remove the sometimes colder sound one can get from a digital source. Before I got the DAC 5 I had 3 AN Kits, which I tweaked to hell, lots of upgraded parts. It was fun doing it and hearing each improvement along the way. I am not sure if I could go back to a solid state DAC, certainly I like what tubes can do, and the ability to adapt the sound to fit a system is very useful indeed. I still get demos of high end DACs now and then, but nothing has made we stray yet....

BTW some talk on USB earlier in this thread. AOIP is another route out of the USB challenges. I was shocked how good it can be.

 

[sbo6]

I respect what Vincent has done with his discrete boards, but I am unsure / convinced the line stage of his DACs is anything special. The tube DAC he dies has a very simple / weak line stage. The Twelve has no gain stage as 'enough voltage' with the extra conversion resistors. The integrity of the gain stage in many DACs is a bit suspect IMO. I have said many times, IMO a DAC is basically a pre-amplifier with a DAC board. Many DACs have pitifully weak line stages and poor power supplies, obsessing on the chip set and other aspects. I would say the digital section is 35% of the final sound. The Lampizator Golden Gate is a DAC I would say has a good power supply and gain stage and the fact it has tubes is nice.

I'm just curious why you believe having tubes in a source component is "nice"? I assume it's because you can flavor the sound to your liking or am I missing something?

 

[Alrainbow]

If we consider hiw many stages any device being made for us goes through there is many steps to screw up the sound. I think a big part of the lampi sound comes from a simple throught it must sound great and not worry about it fitting a certain form or packing.
In the beginning he used a wooden Chassy hiw many people goofed on it.
He had at one time three toroidal transformers
Amd point to point wiring. All goofed on. Now it has matured but only after many internal improvements and many many tweeks and still going.
I heard a story of a well known dac that sounded very good while still point to point Ina bread board
By the time it was cleaned up and made to fit a form most of the magic was gone. Luke does not take this approach and I am glad he does not. There is no audio product that can produce so many types of sound scapes no other that has a cult following as this does.
I own two one came back a few months back and my other is due back soon.