Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[Blizzard]

I so want to believe it Blizz. My GG specialises in DSD reproduction so I have a vested interest. Nonetheless, I recognise that DSD will never catch on to become a mainstream format. In fact I would guess that DSD is no more of a short term fad than the so called vinyl revival.

Well I don't think millions would be invested in SOTA DSD ADC chips if there was no future with DSD. In 2016 and 2017 we will see a whole pile unveiled. As well as a whole pile of finished products that use them. This is where it must start for there to ever be a hope of mainstream success. At the hardware level. Specifically at the chip level. Multibit DSD editing will also make DSD far more attractive for studios. Lack of editing ability was a huge handicap with DSD yesterday.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Until I have the level of experience that the masters in the industry have, I will never make this claim.

"Masters in the industry"???

where did that come from? like there is some magical knower of ultimate audio truth?

But it is common since that the sound quality of a master tape will never be bettered by cutting vinyl from it. Unless you have the mic feeds to work with, you will never beat the original source. Although it can be matched with the Hapi and DSD 256 according to the masters in the industry.

and you know that DSD 256 with the Hapi can match tape as the source how? tell us about all your experience with tape?

I don't have the original rare vinyl of this Bob Dylan album, but I trust the source it came from. The sound is outstanding, the best I've heard the album. And it's only in 24/96 PCM. I can just imagine if a Hapi was used in DSD 256.

you have a 24/96 file from an early Dylan album. besides being a single data point what more could it mean? is that the Rosetta Stone of audio truth unlocking everything? really?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Well I don't think millions would be invested in SOTA DSD ADC chips if there was no future with DSD. In 2016 and 2017 we will see a whole pile unveiled. As well as a whole pile of finished products that use them. This is where it must start for there to ever be a hope of mainstream success. At the hardware level. Specifically at the chip level. Multibit DSD editing will also make DSD far more attractive for studios. Lack of editing ability is a huge handicap with yesterday's DSD.

Perhaps these DSD ADC chips will be directed at the studios themselves for their master - the public will still only get their crappy low res version.

On another note, do you think that the industry is focused on better quality sound for digital at present? I can't believe it since the masses are not complaining about that - they are happy with their at best 320kbps Spotify feed. I recently acquired the latest album by Adele - the recording and mastering is absolutely crap - so annoying. I am sure it was in fact optimised for headphones streamed off iPhone.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

no dought but that was not the point being made origenly by....me.

Ah - I did not get the point then. What were you saying then?

 

[Blizzard]

"Masters in the industry"???

where did that come from? like there is some magical knower of ultimate audio truth?



and you know that DSD 256 with the Hapi can match tape as the source how? tell us about all your experience with tape?



you have a 24/96 file from an early Dylan album. besides being a single data point what more could it mean? is that the Rosetta Stone of audio truth unlocking everything? really?

How many times do I have to go over and over again saying the same thing? Well known industry masters who do have the experience, and have tried apples to apples comparisons, with today's top gear, say they can't tell the difference. And this gear is only going to get better, not worse. And if you can duplicate the master tape perfectly, the same will apply to the mic feeds. Although it would be devoid of the coloration's introduced by the R2R machines. So many won't like as much.

Unless you have a Delorean and plan on going back in time, tomorrow is what matters, not yesterday.

The Bob Dylan example was to show that if a master tape is destroyed, vinyl can sound better than the master. Do I need to explain this in more detail as well?

 

[Blizzard]

Perhaps these DSD ADC chips will be directed at the studios themselves for their master - the public will still only get their crappy low res version.

On another note, do you think that the industry is focused on better quality sound for digital at present? I can't believe it since the masses are not complaining about that - they are happy with their at best 320kbps Spotify feed. I recently acquired the latest album by Adele - the recording and mastering is absolutely crap - so annoying. I am sure it was in fact optimised for headphones streamed off iPhone.

Give it some time. The biggest hold back has been:

1: Editing ability
2: File size
3: mainstream editing/mastering software with the ability

Once those constraints are no longer an issue, there will no longer be any reason for it to not go mainstream.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Give it some time. The biggest hold back has been:

1: Editing ability
2: File size
3: mainstream editing/mastering software with the ability

Once those constraints are no longer an issue, there will no longer be any reason for it to not go mainstream.

I really hope you are right because dsd sounds so much better than PCM IMO.

 

[Blizzard]

I really hope you are right because dsd sounds so much better than PCM IMO.

I believe in Steve Job's philosophy on products. You must show people what they need before they realize they can't live without it. Some people would run around on a hamster wheel for eternity if left up to them.

 

[Al M.]

I believe in Steve Job's philosophy on products. You must show people what they need before they realize they can't live without it. Some people would run around on a hamster wheel for eternity if left up to them.

Your point is mistaken. With iPhone and iPad things were obvious. In this case though there is no advantage to be had for the customers -- on iPhones with ear buds or on car radio DSD 256 won't make any difference over 16/44 Redbook. It even won't make any noteworthy difference over 320 kbps MP3. Nobody has a high end system, except perhaps 0.02 % of the population.

So dream on. The fact is, 16/44 redbook is the digital lossless standard, and that will never change. DSD will never become mainstream standard, just like SACD never did (glad that I didn't waste my time on that one). Get over it. Make the best out of Redbook CD, everything else is a futile daydream.

 

[Blizzard]

Your point is mistaken. With iPhone and iPad things were obvious. In this case though there is no advantage to be had for the customers -- on iPhones with ear buds or on car radio DSD 256 won't make any difference over 16/44 Redbook. It even won't make any noteworthy difference over 320 kbps MP3. Nobody has a high end system, except perhaps 0.02 % of the population.

So dream on. The fact is, 16/44 redbook is the digital lossless standard, and that will never change. DSD will never become mainstream standard, just like SACD never did (glad that I didn't waste my time on that one). Get over it. Make the best out of Redbook CD, everything else is a futile daydream.

People with this exact same mindset said the same thing about the Ipad. It would never take off. Last update I heard Apple has sold 250 million units!!! One of the most successful products in history.

This attitude suppresses innovation, and I can't stand it.

Luckily some people think different or we would still be swinging like monkeys from trees, and living in caves. Most likely wouldn't have even discovered fire yet. Unless of course they were hit in the head with a lightning bolt

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Luckily some people think different or we would still be swinging like monkeys from trees, and living in caves. Most likely wouldn't have even discovered fire yet. Unless of course they were hit in the head with a lightning bolt

And there's your "analogue warmth!".

 

[nc42acc]

Al I understand exactly the point you were trying to make. All this talk of DSD and PCM, analog and digital will only be topics of conversations in audio forums where the .02% reside. What we all need to be trying to do is perpetuate our hobby and recruit more music lovers who can appreciate the best reproduction. Sad to say but if you were to ask the average population what DSD means you will surely get a dumbfounded look. I might be a little off topic but I am trying to see the bigger picture.

Your point is mistaken. With iPhone and iPad things were obvious. In this case though there is no advantage to be had for the customers -- on iPhones with ear buds or on car radio DSD 256 won't make any difference over 16/44 Redbook. It even won't make any noteworthy difference over 320 kbps MP3. Nobody has a high end system, except perhaps 0.02 % of the population.

So dream on. The fact is, 16/44 redbook is the digital lossless standard, and that will never change. DSD will never become mainstream standard, just like SACD never did (glad that I didn't waste my time on that one). Get over it. Make the best out of Redbook CD, everything else is a futile daydream.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Al I understand exactly the point you were trying to make. All this talk of DSD and PCM, analog and digital will only be topics of conversations in audio forums where the .02% reside. What we all need to be trying to do is perpetuate our hobby and recruit more music lovers who can appreciate the best reproduction. Sad to say but if you were to ask the average population what DSD means you will surely get a dumbfounded look. I might be a little off topic but I am trying to see the bigger picture.

Bingo!

 

[TBone]

too many times I've read this or that dsd advocate claiming it the holy grail of all things audio ... as if the rest of us wheel spinning primates have never heard anything close to the holy grail of all things audio ...

 

[Blizzard]

Al I understand exactly the point you were trying to make. All this talk of DSD and PCM, analog and digital will only be topics of conversations in audio forums where the .02% reside. What we all need to be trying to do is perpetuate our hobby and recruit more music lovers who can appreciate the best reproduction. Sad to say but if you were to ask the average population what DSD means you will surely get a dumbfounded look. I might be a little off topic but I am trying to see the bigger picture.

Talking about today yes, I agree, DSD isn't very well known. Tomorrow may be a different story. As the three holdback's I mentioned earlier become non-existent

 

[Al M.]

People with this exact same mindset said the same thing about the Ipad. It would never take off. Last update I heard Apple has sold 250 million units!!! One of the most successful products in history.

This attitude suppresses innovation, and I can't stand it.

Luckily some people think different or we would still be swinging like monkeys from trees, and living in caves. Most likely wouldn't have even discovered fire yet. Unless of course they were hit in the head with a lightning bolt

You obviously don't get the point. Marty did.

 

[Al M.]

And there's your "analogue warmth!".

 

[Al M.]

People with this exact same mindset said the same thing about the Ipad. It would never take off. Last update I heard Apple has sold 250 million units!!! One of the most successful products in history.

This attitude suppresses innovation, and I can't stand it.

You could also argue that the attitude of chasing after irrelevant formats suppresses innovation where we need it, that is in the extraction of the most potential from the de facto digital standard, Redbook CD. And great potential it has, no doubt, as the dCS Vivaldi performance on Redbook shows.

 

[Blizzard]

You obviously don't get the point. Marty did.

I get the point perfectly clear. You are basing the future of digital audio formats on the knowledge of the average guy on the street today. That combined with the mindset that with innovation, drawbacks of products from the past can't be overcome. The same guys laughed at Columbus and called him an idiot when he said the world was round.

 

[Blizzard]

You could also argue that the attitude of chasing after irrelevant formats suppresses innovation where we need it, that is in the extraction of the most potential from the de facto digital standard, Redbook CD. And great potential it has, no doubt, as the dCS Vivaldi performance on Redbook shows.

HQplayer makes redbook sound outstanding as well. And with any DAC, especially if DSD compatible. I'm listening to redbook via Tidal resampled to DSD 256 right now and sounds outstanding. You don't need the Vivaldi to resample redbook to get at least as good of results. But it doesn't make redbook sound better than good native DSD.