Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[Blizzard]

Well, as I said the tubes do add dynamics, make the timbre sound more lifelike and improves dimensionality with little to no sacrifice in fine detail... I'd admit some of this is distortion but there's more to it...

I'd use the cleanest opamp buffer I can find for the NC500s. The amp will only be driving the woofer from 400 Hz on down, I think the std buffer will be fine but I wouldn't be opposed to trying out the Sparkos too.

What are you using for amps and input buffers for your testing? When I built a passive preamp based on a R2R resistor attenuator board, I felt the same way about the lack of dynamics without a gain stage in the pre. But at the time I was using Hypex NC400 amps. The input buffer in them is designed to be coupled with active preamps, or DAC's with robust IV stages. This was the reason for the lack of dynamics. Once I built a stout input buffer on the NC500's, this was no longer an issue. You can't either put more gain in the pre, or more in the amp buffer, it doesn't matter as long as it's in there somewhere

But I do understand if your pre is designed to work with a variety of amps, it should have enough gain to drive a wide variety with ease. These are the compromises that must be made when trying to build components to match up with other components, instead of purpose building as a matched set.

 

[bonzo75]

The Vivaldi/D'AG/X2 rig mentioned is playing rather well .Top notch actually . In an untreated room and scope for great progress, once that issue is tackled . I find it hard pressed to believe that substituting a Viynl front end renders the Vivaldi stack to 10% thereof . Proof is in the listening , but to me the 10% is more like an arbitrary figure thrown in for effect . From what I hear with the Vivaldi it is difficult to fathom how an Analog front end , however good can create such a gulf . In terms of tonality and and flow , Yes, maybe ... but it cannot counter the low noise floor , resolution and dynamics of the DCS . The Vivaldi is no slouch musically either , so while there may be differences favouring the other , it will not be night and day for sure ! Definitely not 10%. Cheers

It doesn't matter if you have a vivaldi or an oppo, the gulf with the right Vinyl set up (not necessarily expensive) will always be the same because the jump from an oppo to any other expensive dac is very small in comparison. All those quietness and insignificant details are red herrings audiophiles lust for which can never replace the tone, weight, and density of analog. Which is why I like Lampi in digital because it too creates a category of its own that though not vinyl makes oppo to vivaldi all sound similar

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Bill , personal preferences surely are understandable . To put an 10% marker in absolute terms is not . Tried the Mooks under the front end while Bonzo was here . Aim to investigate further , liked what I heard . Cheers !

The ten percent is because to me, vivaldi or anything else (don't mean to single out a brand) is insignificant compared to that spj alba with koetsu blue lace mc (not coral stone, as incorrectly mentioned before).

Let me stress that the x2s2 system was much superior to the avior system on digital

 

[Blizzard]

It doesn't matter if you have a vivaldi or an oppo, the gulf with the right Vinyl set up (not necessarily expensive) will always be the same because the jump from an oppo to any other expensive dac is very small in comparison. All those quietness and insignificant details are red herrings audiophiles lust for which can never replace the tone, weight, and density of analog. Which is why I like Lampi in digital because it too creates a category of its own that though not vinyl makes oppo to vivaldi all sound similar

So do you feel vinyl is superior to the master tape the same vinyl was sourced from? Does the record player add more to the original source than was there to begin with? If so, it didn't come from the mic feeds, that's for sure.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So do you feel vinyl is superior to the master tape the same vinyl was sourced from? Does the record player add more to the original source than was there to begin with? If so, it didn't come from the mic feeds, that's for sure.

one of my Drug Dealers (what my wife calls grey market tape sellers) visits me from time to time with his most recent master dub acquisitions. he uses my system to audition these tapes against my vinyl pressings and set-up. he wants to know which of these tapes are 'not quite as good'......'as good'.....'as good but different'......'a little better'......'quite a bit better'.....and 'jaw droppingly better' than my vinyl. he then knows which tapes he can market to his other addicts.

so the answer runs the gamut. in theory the tape is always better.....as it's the source. but the best vinyl masterings are phenomenal. mostly they are quite close in sound, with the tapes very similar but a little better. but I do recall one time when we listened to 20 tapes and only 5 were as good as the vinyl. obviously these tapes have various degrees of generation loss.

the vinyl mastering process does not typically add colorations. it's more degrees of good.

my tape seller has been visiting me for 6-7 years doing this. we've listened to lots of tapes and vinyl.

 

[Blizzard]

one of my Drug Dealers (what my wife calls grey market tape sellers) visits me from time to time with his most recent master dub acquisitions. he uses my system to audition these tapes against my vinyl pressings and set-up. he wants to know which of these tapes are 'not quite as good'......'as good'.....'as good but different'......'a little better'......'quite a bit better'.....and 'jaw droppingly better' than my vinyl. he then knows which tapes he can market to his other addicts.

so the answer runs the gamut. in theory the tape is always better.....as it's the source. but the best vinyl masterings are phenomenal. mostly they are quite close in sound, with the tapes very similar but a little better. but I do recall one time when we listened to 20 tapes and only 5 were as good as the vinyl. obviously these tapes have various degrees of generation loss.

the vinyl mastering process does not typically add colorations. it's more degrees of good.

my tape seller has been visiting me for 6-7 years doing this. we've listened to lots of tapes and vinyl.

But are the tapes he brings over the same tapes the vinyl you are comparing to was sourced from? If not, it's not a fair comparison to see what's lost in the transfer to vinyl. You would also need the same R2R machine the tapes were playing from when the vinyl cuts were made as well. Basically, you would need to be in a studio environment with all of the gear in the picture.

 

[DaveC]

What are you using for amps and input buffers for your testing? When I built a passive preamp based on a R2R resistor attenuator board, I felt the same way about the lack of dynamics without a gain stage in the pre. But at the time I was using Hypex NC400 amps. The input buffer in them is designed to be coupled with active preamps, or DAC's with robust IV stages. This was the reason for the lack of dynamics. Once I built a stout input buffer on the NC500's, this was no longer an issue. You can't either put more gain in the pre, or more in the amp buffer, it doesn't matter as long as it's in there somewhere

But I do understand if your pre is designed to work with a variety of amps, you it should have enough gain to drive a wide variety with ease. These are the compromises that must be made when trying to build components to match up with other components, instead of purpose building as a matched set.

There's no lack of dynamics or thin sound without the buffer, my source has no problem driving my amp + volume control. I simply prefer the sound with the tube buffer in the circuit. The buffer is actually -3.5 dB or so, the gain is negative, but most amplifiers have input sensitivities under 2 volts anyways, so gain match is very good with most modern amps. I also have a pre with 20 dB gain, this is only really good for driving my SET amp that has a ~20V input sensitivity. Preamps with gain are useless in most systems these days.

 

[Blizzard]

There's no lack of dynamics or thin sound without the buffer, my source has no problem driving my amp + volume control. I simply prefer the sound with the tube buffer in the circuit. The buffer is actually -3.5 dB or so, the gain is negative, but most amplifiers have input sensitivities under 2 volts anyways, so gain match is very good with most modern amps. I also have a pre with 20 dB gain, this is only really good for driving my SET amp that has a ~20V input sensitivity. Preamps with gain are useless in most systems these days.

Back in the 90's after reading this review:

http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/873/#yI1kqxeyGIeKUXRh.97


I bought the MF X10D to pair with my Marantz CD63SE based on the Sam Tellig's recommendation in the review. It definitely warmed up the sound, but the novelty worn off after a bit once I realized what I was losing.It's been gathering dust in my closet since about mid 1997. If anyone want's it, let me know.

 

[DaveC]

Back in the 90's after reading this review:

http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/873/#yI1kqxeyGIeKUXRh.97


I bought the MF X10D to pair with my Marantz CD63SE based on the Sam Tellig's recommendation in the review. It definitely warmed up the sound, but the novelty worn off after a bit once I realized what I was losing.It's been gathering dust in my closet since about mid 1997. If anyone want's it, let me know.

Lol, please don't compare the buffer I use with whatever that is. It's not easy to come up with a buffer design that is better than no buffer, assuming there aren't any impedance mismatch issues, but it is possible. Broski's Aikido cathode follower circuit is an example of a superior circuit design, and when implemented with high quality parts it simply does not take away anything.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think Bonzo75's exploration of analog, coming from digital, is fascinating. He loves the Lampizator.

Bonzo75 goes to more live concerts than anyone else I know. He does not deny intellectually what his ears tell him acoustically and emotionally: that analog sounds closer to live than digital.

I know that plunging into vinyl at this stage is not a journey he wishes to make. But, I think, his ears tell him he really has no choice.

Hey Ron,

You might be surprised - I think he is actually seriously considering a vinyl front end now

 

[bonzo75]

Hey Ron,

You might be surprised - I think he is actually seriously considering a vinyl front end now

Yes but for my sake I hope it remains a fantasy.

 

[Blizzard]

Lol, please don't compare the buffer I use with whatever that is. It's not easy to come up with a buffer design that is better than no buffer, assuming there aren't any impedance mismatch issues, but it is possible. Broski's Aikido cathode follower circuit is an example of a superior circuit design, and when implemented with high quality parts it simply does not take away anything.

No no not comparing with yours. I'm just sharing my experience with a tube buffer which was a highly regarded circuit with many tube fans as well. They sold piles of these things, 50000 I hear!! and still are. On gen #3 now.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/musical-fidelity-x-10-v3/

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes but for my sake I hope it remains a fantasy.

You will succumb - it is a certainty

 

[Old Listener]

It's cold outside. Throw another analogue on the fire!

I bought a used CD on Amazon a few minutes ago. I could have bought a download from Presto for $ 0.60 more but I needed to use Amazon points. A couple of days ago, I discovered a knockout performance of the Mendelssohn PC No. 1 with Yuja Wang and Kurt Masur on Youtube. The performance is on a DVD so I bought that on Amazon. I'll strip the audio.

I buy more downloads than physical CDs these days. 16/44.1 Flacs mostly but I'll consider higher res. if it is offered at a small extra cost. When I buy a CD, I rip it to digital files and get the metadata right. Everything lives on my MusicPC and has for years.

Analog sources just aren't relevant to me anymore and I have no day to day need for turntables or phono preamps. All that stuff is part of my distant past.

 

[DaveC]

No no not comparing with yours. I'm just sharing my experience with a tube buffer which was a highly regarded circuit with many tube fans as well. They sold piles of these things, 50000 I hear!! and still are. On gen #3 now.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/musical-fidelity-x-10-v3/

Just the parts for the buffer I put together were many times the cost of that musical fidelity buffer. It's not even close to being in the same league... the preamp I put together would be $10k + retail.

My whole point is there are different forms of "analog warmth" that have different effects. I'm not sure we can lump all forms of "analog warmth" into the same basket.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I discovered a knockout performance of the Mendelssohn PC No. 1 with Yuja Wang and Kurt Masur on Youtube. The performance is on a DVD so I bought that on Amazon.

I actually bought the newly reissued Columbia vinyl LP of Serkin playing that (and No. 2) on Speakers Corner late last year. I was only listening to it yesterday. I love it. One of the best recordings I have - soundwise and in terms of performance.

http://www.speakerscornerrecords.com/products/details/6128/mendelssohn-piano-concertos-nos-1-2

 

[Blizzard]

Just the parts for the buffer I put together were many times the cost of that musical fidelity buffer. It's not even close to being in the same league... the preamp I put together would be $10k + retail.

My whole point is there are different forms of "analog warmth" that have different effects. I'm not sure we can lump all forms of "analog warmth" into the same basket.

Yes I agree. I think the article on SOS sums things up nicely. Although it was written in 2010 and at the time he was unaware of 2016+ DSP technology when it comes to adding warmth in the digital domain, rather than using hardware.

 

[Old Listener]

I actually bought the newly reissued Columbia vinyl LP of Serkin playing that (and No. 2) on Speakers Corner late last year. I was only listening to it yesterday. I love it. One of the best recordings I have - soundwise and in terms of performance.

http://www.speakerscornerrecords.com/products/details/6128/mendelssohn-piano-concertos-nos-1-2

I have those performances on CD. It didn't make me appreciate those works. The Wang/Masur grabbed me from the start. Sometimes the right performance can sell a work you aren't that keen on.

 

[microstrip]

So do you feel vinyl is superior to the master tape the same vinyl was sourced from? Does the record player add more to the original source than was there to begin with? If so, it didn't come from the mic feeds, that's for sure.

Although it is not be expected to happen every time it can happen - the master tape is further mastered for vinyl and it can happen this mastering sounds better in one's particular system.

 

[Blizzard]

Although it is not be expected to happen every time it can happen - the master tape is further mastered for vinyl and it can happen this mastering sounds better in one's particular system.

Yes exactly, so not an apples to apples comparison in this case. With a Digital system like the Merging Hapi/Pyramix, you can make an exact clone of the master tape, and compare. This is truly apples to apples. If mastering improves sound, that's another matter altogether, this has nothing to do with the format. The same mastering can be applied to all formats if desired. Of course with pure DSD, until we see full multibit DSD editing capabilities, this makes things a bit more difficult. We are forced to convert to DxD, or do the mastering in the analog domain before it's put on the master tape if analog sourced.