Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[Audiophile Bill]

Your point is mistaken. With iPhone and iPad things were obvious. In this case though there is no advantage to be had for the customers -- on iPhones with ear buds or on car radio DSD 256 won't make any difference over 16/44 Redbook. It even won't make any noteworthy difference over 320 kbps MP3. Nobody has a high end system, except perhaps 0.02 % of the population.

So dream on. The fact is, 16/44 redbook is the digital lossless standard, and that will never change. DSD will never become mainstream standard, just like SACD never did (glad that I didn't waste my time on that one). Get over it. Make the best out of Redbook CD, everything else is a futile daydream.

+1 - that was the precise point I was making.

Blizz - All this tosh about stifling innovation - you are misaligned with what 99.99% of the world want from music playback. Most people are happy with the quality of streaming YouTube off any digital device in the house. Listening to music in the sense that we do - i.e. sitting down and listening to a dedicated 2 ch audio system is massively outdated.

Continue your innovation for the minutiae (that we are) as it is welcomed by us alone.

 

[Detlof]

IME, the best I've heard is RtR tape but for me, it costs far too much for the tape nevermind the limited material available. I've also heard TTs that are better than the best digital I've heard but I'm too young to have a LP collection and I'm not going to start now, the money involved is far too much to obtain a TT setup that will beat the best digital + a decent collection of vinyl to play on it. So for me I'll be looking for the best value in digital although I do prefer analog.

As far as the warmth thing, people usually go for a system they feel has the right amount or they will go for a system that is the most accurate possible, the real definition of high fidelity.... not a whole lot of middle ground here ime. Although some folks do change from preferring "warmth" (distortion) to preferring high fidelity, this usually requires actually hearing a high fidelity system that is not also harsh. Very few to no people go from preferring high fidelity to preferring distortion, so I'd say these preferences are mostly learned and if the person has enough experience with "good" high fidelity systems than that is what they will prefer. The preference for warmth is simply acclimation, imo... and the reason I feel this is true is because warmth masks fine detail, detail that can create a stronger connection to the music and a stronger emotional reaction in the listener.

Exactly! The Jadis pre were an example for warmth. The Zanden had a touch of he other extreme but was close to neutral, the Wavac also close but with a touch to warmth, the Atma has always done it right and also the Lamms of course, all to my ears. The Spectrals were a relief for me after I had fallen for the Jadis, but they turned out to be too analytical for my liking in the long run. It is all a matter of education, best done with life music in my opinion.

And yes Blizz, I am all for innovation in our field, if it serves the music and I don't care in which format it comes. I'll even take a chip in the brain if it transports me to the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam while I sit in my armchair.

 

[Jazzhead]

GG will be better than vivaldi in all systems. Vinyl will be better than both. Sorry to sound absolutist. The density of brass and the tone of violins can't be equalled on digital. Maybe very good master files can come close, but there will be few of them. The liquidity of vinyl will also be greater. Just heard a vivaldi stack with Dan agostino pre and momentum, transparent opus cabling, on Wilson Alexandria x2s2. It was much superior to a Rockport avior I heard on crap digital. However that avior system, once the spj alba with koetsu coral stone was plugged in, did things to me this vivaldi Alexandria system could not achieve ten percent of. I am off on Monday to look at a kuzma xl4 with 4 point tonearm.

The Vivaldi/D'AG/X2 rig mentioned is playing rather well .Top notch actually . In an untreated room and scope for great progress, once that issue is tackled . I find it hard pressed to believe that substituting a Viynl front end renders the Vivaldi stack to 10% thereof . Proof is in the listening , but to me the 10% is more like an arbitrary figure thrown in for effect . From what I hear with the Vivaldi it is difficult to fathom how an Analog front end , however good can create such a gulf . In terms of tonality and and flow , Yes, maybe ... but it cannot counter the low noise floor , resolution and dynamics of the DCS . The Vivaldi is no slouch musically either , so while there may be differences favouring the other , it will not be night and day for sure ! Definitely not 10%. Cheers

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The Vivaldi/D'AG/X2 rig is playing rather well .Top notch actually . In an untreated room and scope for great progress, once that issue is tackled . I find it hard pressed to believe that substituting a Viynl front end renders the Vivaldi stack to 10% thereof . Proof is in the listening , but to me the 10% is more like an arbitrary figure thrown in for effect . From what I hear with the Vivaldi it is difficult to fathom how an Analog front end , however good can create such a gulf . In terms of tonality and and flow , Yes, maybe ... but it cannot counter the low noise floor , resolution and dynamics of the DCS . The Vivaldi is no slouch musically , so while there may be differences favouring the other , it will not be night and day for sure ! Definitely not 10%. Cheers

Hi Jazzhead,

I think Bonzo apportions a very heavy weighting on tonality and flow verses other aspects of system performance - for example, he is not bothered too much about noise floor.

 

[Al M.]

Hi Jazzhead,

I think Bonzo apportions a very heavy weighting on tonality and flow verses other aspects of system performance - for example, he is not bothered too much about noise floor.

Actually, the organic flow of the music was outstanding with the Vivaldi stack. Peter A. who is a die-hard analog fan and was there also at the demo agreed with me, if I remember correctly. His ideas about digital were overturned. And that was just with Redbook and HDCD. No hi-res.

 

[Jazzhead]

Actually, the organic flow of the music was outstanding with the Vivaldi stack. Peter A. who is a die-hard analog fan and was there also at the demo agreed with me, if I remember correctly. His ideas about digital were overturned. And that was just with Redbook and HDCD. No hi-res.

+1

 

[TBone]

so I'd say these preferences are mostly learned and if the person has enough experience with "good" high fidelity systems than that is what they will prefer. The preference for warmth is simply acclimation, imo... and the reason I feel this is true is because warmth masks fine detail, detail that can create a stronger connection to the music and a stronger emotional reaction in the listener.

my experience also ...

example: a high quality preamp that includes a direct bypass circuit, limiting inputs, wires, switches, pots (and all the subsequent solder joints) pre line stage can easily demonstrate the effect. In my case, that direct circuit includes high quality silver wires, as compared to hq copper in the non-direct path.

The direct path offers finer detail, more dimensional picture; but it's not without issue ... tonally brighter and therefore less forgiving, certainly not nearly as "warm". I personally much prefer the "leaner/cooler/wider" direct circuit, but a friend actually stated that in some cases, he may prefer the non-direct circuit, it's a more rounded type sound, w/more apparent low end punch ...

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think Bonzo75's exploration of analog, coming from digital, is fascinating. He loves the Lampizator.

Bonzo75 goes to more live concerts than anyone else I know. He does not deny intellectually what his ears tell him acoustically and emotionally: that analog sounds closer to live than digital.

I know that plunging into vinyl at this stage is not a journey he wishes to make. But, I think, his ears tell him he really has no choice.

 

[Jazzhead]

Hi Jazzhead,

I think Bonzo apportions a very heavy weighting on tonality and flow verses other aspects of system performance - for example, he is not bothered too much about noise floor.

Hi Bill , personal preferences surely are understandable . To put an 10% marker in absolute terms is not . Tried the Mooks under the front end while Bonzo was here . Aim to investigate further , liked what I heard . Cheers !

 

[Al M.]

I think Bonzo75's exploration of analog, coming from digital, is fascinating. He loves the Lampizator.

Bonzo75 goes to more live concerts than anyone else I know. He does not deny intellectually what his ears tell him acoustically and emotionally: that analog sounds closer to live than digital.

I know that plunging into vinyl at this stage is not a journey he wishes to make. But, I think, his ears tell him he really has no choice.

As you know from my first post on this thread, Ron, I also recognize the superiority of top-level (not just any) vinyl in some crucial aspects. Yet the incredible performance of the dCS Vivaldi stack, which also overturned Peter A.'s concepts about digital, gives me hope. For several reasons vinyl is not an option for me, so I have no choice but to make the best of digital. I expect that a dCS Rossini DAC will get me closer to the analog experience. I plan to audition it soon.

 

[Ron Resnick]

As you know from my first post on this thread, Ron, I also recognize the superiority of top-level (not just any) vinyl in some crucial aspects. Yet the incredible performance of the dCS Vivaldi stack, which also overturned Peter A.'s concepts about digital, gives me hope. For several reasons vinyl is not an option for me, so I have no choice but to make the best of digital. I expect that a dCS Rossini DAC will get me closer to the analog experience. I plan to audition it soon.

I understand, Al. Yes, it is interesting that you and Peter A. were both very impressed with the dCS stack.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as far as noise floor and vinyl or tape compared to the top level digital (the GG and Trinity in my case) don't confuse the lack of sound with a lower noise floor. with top level vinyl you hear 'into' the noise floor quite a ways, the same with tape. with digital there can be 'no sound', zero sound, nada. no sound does not mean there was nothing to hear. it means nothing made it to the file. and this is where native Quad dsd gets farther than other digital. but it's still not to analog. and this is where a native Quad file sounds better to me than a Quad dsd copy of a tape. Quad needs to be native to get that lower noise floor. Quad still misses the image density and weight of analog. it does not have the ease. there is not as much on the bones.

with analog it's always an ambient layer and there is lots of 'content' going on fleshing out the musical experience. when you go from track to track you hear a slight noise floor between tracks, then before the first note of the next track the room pressurizes and ambience of the recording happens. between digital tracks it's not the same thing. this is an important aspect to the concept of how bodies react to analog. it's just more 'normal' in our real experiences. calling it 'warmth' misses and confuses the point. a better word is 'complete'.

this aspect of analog does vary from system to system since every step in the vinyl chain can mask or unmask this aspect of the sound. and this is why there are so many levels of vinyl. but once you get most/all of the noise out of the way you are hearing waaaay into the music. so when Bonzo says '10%'......even though that is more emotion than objectivity......I get where that comes from. there is a big gap. this is where you get so much more meat on the bones, so much more texture, so much more dynamic weight. an undeniable (upon actually hearing it) reality.

and if you have perspectives based on moderate levels of analog performance then the perceptions are based on the degree of execution of the format, not the limits and attributes of the format. we are still uncovering more and more of that with vinyl. we have not yet heard the very best of vinyl. it's getting better too.

 

[Purite Audio]

as far as noise floor and vinyl or tape compared to the top level digital (the GG and Trinity in my case) don't confuse the lack of sound with a lower noise floor. with top level vinyl you hear 'into' the noise floor quite a ways, the same with tape. with digital there can be 'no sound', zero sound, nada. no sound does not mean there was nothing to hear. it means nothing made it to the file. and this is where native Quad dsd gets farther than other digital. but it's still not to analog. and this is where a native Quad file sounds better to me than a Quad dsd copy of a tape. Quad needs to be native to get that lower noise floor. Quad still misses the image density and weight of analog. it does not have the ease. there is not as much on the bones.

with analog it's always an ambient layer and there is lots of 'content' going on fleshing out the musical experience. when you go from track to track you hear a slight noise floor between tracks, then before the first note of the next track the room pressurizes and ambience of the recording happens. between digital tracks it's not the same thing. this is an important aspect to the concept of how bodies react to analog. it's just more 'normal' in our real experiences. calling it 'warmth' misses and confuses the point.

this aspect of analog does vary from system to system since every step in the vinyl chain can mask or unmask this aspect of the sound. and this is why there are so many levels of vinyl. but once you get most/all of the noise out of the way you are hearing waaaay into the music. so when Bonzo says '10%'......even though that is more emotion than objectivity......I get where that comes from. there is a big gap. this is where you get so much more meat on the bones, so much more texture, so much more dynamic weight.

and if you have perspectives based on moderate levels of analog performance then the perceptions are based on the degree of execution of the format, not the limits and attributes of the format. we are still uncovering more and more of that with vinyl. we have not yet heard the very best of vinyl. it's getting better too.

! Lack of noise does mean lower noise floor, you can easily measure the relative noise floors between formats.
Keith.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

! Lack of noise does mean lower noise floor, you can easily measure the relative noise floors between formats.
Keith.

to the limits and understanding of your methods of measurements. determining what is real and what is noise is a question. ears are better at this. our ears prefer a 'soft' noise floor instead of a hard one.

just compare the formats head to head. the space and ambience of the analog version is dramatically different. there is more going on than noise floor differences, but it's important.

 

[Blizzard]

How about we get back to the original topic. These are the reasons for the analogue warmth in audio as accurately described with a comprehensive list in the SOS article I shared. Why doesn't anyone want to acknowledge the real reasons for analogue warmth? Don't worry it won't mean your ears are no good to acknowledge this, it just means you are 1 step closer to understanding why your systems sound like they do.

 

[Blizzard]

As you know from my first post on this thread, Ron, I also recognize the superiority of top-level (not just any) vinyl in some crucial aspects. Yet the incredible performance of the dCS Vivaldi stack, which also overturned Peter A.'s concepts about digital, gives me hope. For several reasons vinyl is not an option for me, so I have no choice but to make the best of digital. I expect that a dCS Rossini DAC will get me closer to the analog experience. I plan to audition it soon.

Before this, try auditioning HQplayer upsampling redbook to DSD. It works the same as the Vivaldi upsampler, only runs on general purpose computer gear. Your friend Madfloyd built my streamer system that uses HQplayer to the max potential. Perhaps you should go for a visit once he has it setup good.

 

[DaveC]

my experience also ...

example: a high quality preamp that includes a direct bypass circuit, limiting inputs, wires, switches, pots (and all the subsequent solder joints) pre line stage can easily demonstrate the effect. In my case, that direct circuit includes high quality silver wires, as compared to hq copper in the non-direct path.

The direct path offers finer detail, more dimensional picture; but it's not without issue ... tonally brighter and therefore less forgiving, certainly not nearly as "warm". I personally much prefer the "leaner/cooler/wider" direct circuit, but a friend actually stated that in some cases, he may prefer the non-direct circuit, it's a more rounded type sound, w/more apparent low end punch ...

That's an interesting situation because there may also be impedance related issues with non-buffered preamps... I just built a preamp using a really nice Tortuga LDR attenuator and Aikido tube buffer:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19069-New-Preamp

I tried out the preamp bypassing the tube buffer and my results are similar to yours, but I think the tube buffer in this case is only helping. The sound is more dynamic, timbre is more realistic and soundstage/imaging is better as well. The Aikido buffer is very low distortion, although there is no doubt there is some "analog warmth" being added as well, but in this case I do think it adds to the fidelity as it makes the music sound more realistic without sacrificing fine detail. I think that tubes, especially small signal tubes in a very low-distortion circuit, are possibly an exception to the rule that warmth kills detail, or at least not to a large degree... the possible reason being that the circuit is so simple (no NFB, etc). OTOH, a warm copper interconnect cable can do quite a bit of damage... this kind of warmth really kills detail and "flattens" the music...

So it could be that "analog warmth" must be further subdivided as all "analog warmth" is not the same, some is much more destructive than others.

 

[Blizzard]

That's an interesting situation because there may also be impedance related issues with non-buffered preamps... I just built a preamp using a really nice Tortuga LDR attenuator and Aikido tube buffer:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19069-New-Preamp

I tried out the preamp bypassing the tube buffer and my results are similar to yours, but I think the tube buffer in this case is only helping. The sound is more dynamic, timbre is more realistic and soundstage/imaging is better as well. The Aikido buffer is very low distortion, although there is no doubt there is some "analog warmth" being added as well, but in this case I do think it adds to the fidelity as it makes the music sound more realistic without sacrificing fine detail. I think that tubes, especially small signal tubes in a very low-distortion circuit, are possibly an exception to the rule that warmth kills detail, or at least not to a large degree... the possible reason being that the circuit is so simple (no NFB, etc). OTOH, a warm copper interconnect cable can do quite a bit of damage... this kind of warmth really kills detail and "flattens" the music...

So it could be that "analog warmth" must be further subdivided as all "analog warmth" is not the same, some is much more destructive than others.

Since you are building NC500 based amps, use a stout discrete class A input buffer. This will solve the issues. Likely won't even need the tube buffer in the pre, unless the coloration is desired. Use an input buffer like I talked Colin into building.

http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!hypex-amps/avuyk

The Sparko's are great for this. They run in pure class A up to 16mA, and 65mA until they deviate from spec. The NC 500's only require 10mA at full output.

 

[DaveC]

Since you are building NC500 based amps, use a stout discrete class A input buffer. This will solve the issues. Likely won't even need the tube buffer in the pre, unless the coloration is desired. Use an input buffer like I talked Colin into building.

http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!hypex-amps/avuyk

The Sparko's are great for this. They run in pure class A up to 16mA, and 65mA until they deviate from spec. The NC 500's only require 10mA at full output.

Well, as I said the tubes do add dynamics, make the timbre sound more lifelike and improves dimensionality with little to no sacrifice in fine detail... I'd admit some of this is distortion but there's more to it...

I'd use the cleanest opamp buffer I can find for the NC500s. The amp will only be driving the woofer from 400 Hz on down, I think the std buffer will be fine but I wouldn't be opposed to trying out the Sparkos too.

 

[bonzo75]

as far as noise floor and vinyl or tape compared to the top level digital (the GG and Trinity in my case) don't confuse the lack of sound with a lower noise floor. with top level vinyl you hear 'into' the noise floor quite a ways, the same with tape. with digital there can be 'no sound', zero sound, nada. no sound does not mean there was nothing to hear. it means nothing made it to the file. and this is where native Quad dsd gets farther than other digital. but it's still not to analog. and this is where a native Quad file sounds better to me than a Quad dsd copy of a tape. Quad needs to be native to get that lower noise floor. Quad still misses the image density and weight of analog. it does not have the ease. there is not as much on the bones.

with analog it's always an ambient layer and there is lots of 'content' going on fleshing out the musical experience. when you go from track to track you hear a slight noise floor between tracks, then before the first note of the next track the room pressurizes and ambience of the recording happens. between digital tracks it's not the same thing. this is an important aspect to the concept of how bodies react to analog. it's just more 'normal' in our real experiences. calling it 'warmth' misses and confuses the point. a better word is 'complete'.

this aspect of analog does vary from system to system since every step in the vinyl chain can mask or unmask this aspect of the sound. and this is why there are so many levels of vinyl. but once you get most/all of the noise out of the way you are hearing waaaay into the music. so when Bonzo says '10%'......even though that is more emotion than objectivity......I get where that comes from. there is a big gap. this is where you get so much more meat on the bones, so much more texture, so much more dynamic weight. an undeniable (upon actually hearing it) reality.

and if you have perspectives based on moderate levels of analog performance then the perceptions are based on the degree of execution of the format, not the limits and attributes of the format. we are still uncovering more and more of that with vinyl. we have not yet heard the very best of vinyl. it's getting better too.

Extremely well put, a lot of things there I would have liked to have said buy you expressed it better.