Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[spiritofmusic]

Interestingly (to me anyhow), after years of first preferring vinyl to digital by a BIG margin (the early 80s, Linn Sondek LP12 v first generation Meridian 207, no contest), getting what digital could promise in the late 80s (Marantz CD12 SE, still my favourite cdp by a long chalk, beating the Roksan Xerxes X of the time), to beginning to prefer digital, or at least see where it was superior to analog (mid to late 2000s, Emm Labs CDSA SE beating my Michell Orbe/SME V/Transfiguration), to my current state where analog has the edge, but digital holds it's head up, and the two coexist in my system w/no true conclusive victor (Eera Tentation cdp v Trans Fi Salvation and Terminator/Straingauge).
For me, I've managed partially by luck, and partially thru really finding out about the strengths and weaknesses of analog and digital, to get to a point where I can match an unusually colourful and textured cdp, where tonal differentiation is maxxed (my main complaint l/t re digital, where cd's sound so alike tonally from one disc to the next, firmly kicked into touch by the Eera, alongside the Marantz CD12 SE and the GG as the only digital I've listened to that allows each album to sound "different" to the next, like the finest analog representation on lp's re tone), to an unusually neutral, precise and stop-start analog rig, where more than any other lp replay I've had in the past, the benefits of cd ie lower noise floor and stability of soundstage are beautifully rendered for the first time when listening to lp's. Now I have both formats able to excel in each others' usual strengths, and converging more than diverging in presentation.
Analog just maintains a healthy edge. Analog warmth? Certainly digital, even dsd on the GG, STILL falls short of what lp replay can offer re allowing each album to breathe and sound different going from one to the next. For me, whatever allows such differentiation/lack of homogeneity in the analog chain, is the key deciding factor. I just feel so lucky that by chance I've found a cdp that stacks up well against analog re these parameters. And don't feel I have to keep living thru those frustrating analog v digital wars.

 

[Blizzard]

Interestingly (to me anyhow), after years of first preferring vinyl to digital by a BIG margin (the early 80s, Linn Sondek LP12 v first generation Meridian 207, no contest), getting what digital could promise in the late 80s (Marantz CD12 SE, still my favourite cdp by a long chalk, beating the Roksan Xerxes X of the time), to beginning to prefer digital, or at least see where it was superior to analog (mid to late 2000s, Emm Labs CDSA SE beating my Michell Orbe/SME V/Transfiguration), to my current state where analog has the edge, but digital holds it's head up, and the two coexist in my system w/no true conclusive victor (Eera Tentation cdp v Trans Fi Salvation and Terminator/Straingauge).
For me, I've managed partially by luck, and partially thru really finding out about the strengths and weaknesses of analog and digital, to get to a point where I can match an unusually colourful and textured cdp, where tonal differentiation is maxxed (my main complaint l/t re digital, where cd's sound so alike from one disc to the next, firmly kicked into touch by the Eera, alongside the Marantz CD12 SE and the GG as the only digital I've listened to that allows each disc to sound "different" to the next, like the finest analog representation of tone), to an unusually neutral, precise and stop-start analog rig, where more than any other lp replay i've had, the benefits of cd ie lower noise floor and stability of soundstage, are beautifully rendered. Now i have both formats able to excel in each others' usual strengths, and converging more than diverging in presentation.
Analog just maintains a healthy edge. Analog warmth?

Personally my 100% digital setup with 100% discrete class A transistor signal path and class D amplification, has all the warmth I could ever ask for. And it does it all with phenomenal measurements as well. If I want to warm things up a bit more, I'll just change digital filter settings. I think the only way to add warmth without causing measurable degradation, is by digital filters, cables, and caps. Some resistors can sound warmer as well, but I think this is because the more premium ones are doing less harm to the signal.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Blizzard, as the man who thinks valve "distortion" can just me measured/sampled/added to the sound of a Class D amp, and we're all going to be fooled, more power to you. Warmth is a subjective thing. For me, lack of tonal discrimination in so much digital is a factor of it's lack of warmth compared to analog. If you're going to retort and say this doesn't apply to your experience, well you've had an easier journey in this convoluted hobby, I tip my hat to you. But it doesn't correlate w/my experience and w/prob a large number on the forums.
And please, bring yr "any colour can be added" amp to market. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be able to get a SET sound, but be able to use non-SET friendly spkrs like planars, 'stats, inefficient box spkrs. You make a Class D amp that sounds IDENTICAL to 845s, 211s, 300Bs out there, but can rock my room w.600W/ch, and I'll buy it in a flash. Until you do, or anyone does, or there's concrete news of one on the horizon, you just sound like you're shouting the odds.
For me, I feel I've reached a happy medium of analog-like, warm and tonally-discriminative cdp, and digital-like stable and low noise flr tt.
It's only taken me two decades, three if you include my pre-upgrading days when I bored people to tears at parties in the first decade of cd telling them just how pants cd was v lp, LOL.
You got it right from day one. Congrats :b.

 

[Blizzard]

Well Blizzard, as the man who thinks valve "distortion" can just me measured/sampled/added to the sound of a Class D amp, and we're all going to be fooled, more power to you. Warmth is a subjective thing. For me, lack of tonal discrimination in so much digital is a factor of it's lack of warmth compared to analog. If you're going to retort and say this doesn't apply to your experience, well you've had an easier journey in this convoluted hobby, I tip my hat to you. But it doesn't correlate w/my experience and w/prob a large number on the forums.
And please, bring yr "any colour can be added" amp to market. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be able to get a SET sound, but be able to use non-SET friendly spkrs like planars, 'stats, inefficient box spkrs. You make a Class D amp that sounds IDENTICAL to 845s, 211s, 300Bs out there, but can rock my room w.600W/ch, and I'll buy it in a flash. Until you do, or anyone does, or there's concrete news of one on the horizon, you just sound like you're shouting the odds.
For me, I feel I've reached a happy medium of analog-like, warm and tonally-discriminative cdp, and digital-like stable and low noise flr tt.
It's only taken me two decades, three if you include my pre-upgrading days when I bored people to tears at parties in the first decade of cd telling them just how pants cd was v lp, LOL.
You got it right from day one. Congrats :b.

The difference between your experience and mine is, you are basing yours on the last 35 years of digital/analog gear. I'm basing my current experience on next gen cutting edge digital technologies, combined with the best class D available, along with the best class A discrete circuit designs in the business .

I agree with you that in the past, analog may have had an edge in some departments. But I'm afraid to say, those days are over. But this is great news not bad news!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes exactly, so not an apples to apples comparison in this case. With a Digital system like the Merging Hapi/Pyramix, you can make an exact clone of the master tape, and compare. This is truly apples to apples. If mastering improves sound, that's another matter altogether, this has nothing to do with the format. The same mastering can be applied to all formats if desired. Of course with pure DSD, until we see full multibit DSD editing capabilities, this makes things a bit more difficult. We are forced to convert to DxD, or do the mastering in the analog domain before it's put on the master tape if analog sourced.

says the guy who has never heard a master tape.

wake me up when you have heard one even once.

 

[Blizzard]

says the guy who has never heard a master tape.

wake me up when you have heard one even once.

I don't need to. We have guys like Jan Eric Persson and Bruce Brown making us flawless digital clones. I'll trust them to keep them coming! And from here on in, they're only gonna get better!

Just wait for the Grimm AD2!

I hate to break it to you but soon analog will be :

 

[Al M.]

I don't need to. We have guys like Jan Eric Persson and Bruce Brown making us flawless digital clones.

Hmmm, does that remind me of something?

Aah yes, "perfect sound forever"! Welcome back to the Eighties.

 

[esldude]

Well Blizzard, as the man who thinks valve "distortion" can just me measured/sampled/added to the sound of a Class D amp, and we're all going to be fooled, more power to you. Warmth is a subjective thing. For me, lack of tonal discrimination in so much digital is a factor of it's lack of warmth compared to analog. If you're going to retort and say this doesn't apply to your experience, well you've had an easier journey in this convoluted hobby, I tip my hat to you. But it doesn't correlate w/my experience and w/prob a large number on the forums.
And please, bring yr "any colour can be added" amp to market. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be able to get a SET sound, but be able to use non-SET friendly spkrs like planars, 'stats, inefficient box spkrs. You make a Class D amp that sounds IDENTICAL to 845s, 211s, 300Bs out there, but can rock my room w.600W/ch, and I'll buy it in a flash. Until you do, or anyone does, or there's concrete news of one on the horizon, you just sound like you're shouting the odds.
For me, I feel I've reached a happy medium of analog-like, warm and tonally-discriminative cdp, and digital-like stable and low noise flr tt.
It's only taken me two decades, three if you include my pre-upgrading days when I bored people to tears at parties in the first decade of cd telling them just how pants cd was v lp, LOL.
You got it right from day one. Congrats :b.

I can be a big help to you here. You can have your SET sound with several hundred watts of power for stats if you like.

Do what I once did. In my case, I much prefer push-pull triode sound to SET, but to each his own.

I once had a triode amp I thought far better sounding, more detailed, dynamic, tonally rich and discriminating than any SS amp. I did an experiment, in an attempt to see how much of this wonderful sound was lost by quality SS amps. I loaded the output of my triode amp with an appropriate sized power resistor. I then used Vishay resistors to reduce voltage so the amp output was exactly unity gain with the input. Put in 2 volts, and get out 2 volts. I fed this over DIY interconnects made or the purpose to a Spectral power amp (best sounding SS in my opinion at the time). I wondered would the Spectral lose half or two thirds of the musical nuance, dynamics, spaciousness etc. To my great surprise I heard the sound of my beloved triode amp. Proving to me the Spectral with lower distortion, noise and wider bandwidth really was capable of fully reproducing the sound of the triode amp, and that the triode amp had a beautiful euphonic sound that was not high fidelity to the input.

So you can do the same if you wish. I later did this with other SS amps and not all are transparent like the Spectral. The better of them were. So you don't have to wait for something to be brought to market. I have pondered doing that myself. My idea was to transformer couple a baby triode amp using 12AX7's capable of a couple watts output as a pre-amp giving that triode sound to any transparent power amp connected. SET's are low enough in power to simply do what I did however.

Now I currently use class D amps. I haven't done this sort of connection to know if they are fully transparent. My use of them vs other conventional high end gear makes me think they probably are or are very close with most speakers. So go ahead, pick a nice class D amp and feed it with your favorite SET.

This experiment also validates the idea such amps have a sound despite sounding as if they are better. Which also means a DSP produced plug in of the right quality is at least theoretically possible whether it has been done yet or not. You could convolve the sound of your favorite amp with the appropriate software on your own for digital playback.

 

[Blizzard]

Hmmm, does that remind me of something?

Aah yes, "perfect sound forever"! Welcome back to the Eighties.

It's a good thing that we learned a few things over the last 34 years since CD's came out

 

[spiritofmusic]

I can be a big help to you here. You can have your SET sound with several hundred watts of power for stats if you like.

Do what I once did. In my case, I much prefer push-pull triode sound to SET, but to each his own.

I once had a triode amp I thought far better sounding, more detailed, dynamic, tonally rich and discriminating than any SS amp. I did an experiment, in an attempt to see how much of this wonderful sound was lost by quality SS amps. I loaded the output of my triode amp with an appropriate sized power resistor. I then used Vishay resistors to reduce voltage so the amp output was exactly unity gain with the input. Put in 2 volts, and get out 2 volts. I fed this over DIY interconnects made or the purpose to a Spectral power amp (best sounding SS in my opinion at the time). I wondered would the Spectral lose half or two thirds of the musical nuance, dynamics, spaciousness etc. To my great surprise I heard the sound of my beloved triode amp. Proving to me the Spectral with lower distortion, noise and wider bandwidth really was capable of fully reproducing the sound of the triode amp, and that the triode amp had a beautiful euphonic sound that was not high fidelity to the input.

So you can do the same if you wish. I later did this with other SS amps and not all are transparent like the Spectral. The better of them were. So you don't have to wait for something to be brought to market. I have pondered doing that myself. My idea was to transformer couple a baby triode amp using 12AX7's capable of a couple watts output as a pre-amp giving that triode sound to any transparent power amp connected. SET's are low enough in power to simply do what I did however.

Now I currently use class D amps. I haven't done this sort of connection to know if they are fully transparent. My use of them vs other conventional high end gear makes me think they probably are or are very close with most speakers. So go ahead, pick a nice class D amp and feed it with your favorite SET.

This experiment also validates the idea such amps have a sound despite sounding as if they are better. Which also means a DSP produced plug in of the right quality is at least theoretically possible whether it has been done yet or not. You could convolve the sound of your favorite amp with the appropriate software on your own for digital playback.

So you were able to "turbo charge" your push-pull triode sound "piggy-backed" onto Class D, and liked the results? But now you're using just Class D? Because after this revelation, you didn't like the results? Or you found that once you replicated it, you found Class D au naturel sounded just as good?
What am I missing here?

 

[spiritofmusic]

The difference between your experience and mine is, you are basing yours on the last 35 years of digital/analog gear. I'm basing my current experience on next gen cutting edge digital technologies, combined with the best class D available, along with the best class A discrete circuit designs in the business .

I agree with you that in the past, analog may have had an edge in some departments. But I'm afraid to say, those days are over. But this is great news not bad news!

It's neither good news. Nor bad news. Just not news.
What it is, is your opinion.
That's great, I have mine too.
Welcome to the forums Merry Go Round where we now potentially spend the next three decades debating this point.
My interest will be piqued when these so-called cutting edge techs that only have just started to be developed mature in the market, and I get to hear one myself.
Until then, it's so-much hot air.
As it is, I've absolutely loved finding out about dsd in the last few months, enjoying it's quasi analog-like presentation, and yet find in a lot of cases that I prefer the more urgent presentation of "lowly" rbcd, and the move from a £20k digital player playing dsd and rbcd, to a tt at a tenth of the price playing vinyl, just takes me straight to heart of the performance in a way no digital can.
IMHO. And just that, no more, no less.

 

[Blizzard]

I can be a big help to you here. You can have your SET sound with several hundred watts of power for stats if you like.

Do what I once did. In my case, I much prefer push-pull triode sound to SET, but to each his own.

I once had a triode amp I thought far better sounding, more detailed, dynamic, tonally rich and discriminating than any SS amp. I did an experiment, in an attempt to see how much of this wonderful sound was lost by quality SS amps. I loaded the output of my triode amp with an appropriate sized power resistor. I then used Vishay resistors to reduce voltage so the amp output was exactly unity gain with the input. Put in 2 volts, and get out 2 volts. I fed this over DIY interconnects made or the purpose to a Spectral power amp (best sounding SS in my opinion at the time). I wondered would the Spectral lose half or two thirds of the musical nuance, dynamics, spaciousness etc. To my great surprise I heard the sound of my beloved triode amp. Proving to me the Spectral with lower distortion, noise and wider bandwidth really was capable of fully reproducing the sound of the triode amp, and that the triode amp had a beautiful euphonic sound that was not high fidelity to the input.

So you can do the same if you wish. I later did this with other SS amps and not all are transparent like the Spectral. The better of them were. So you don't have to wait for something to be brought to market. I have pondered doing that myself. My idea was to transformer couple a baby triode amp using 12AX7's capable of a couple watts output as a pre-amp giving that triode sound to any transparent power amp connected. SET's are low enough in power to simply do what I did however.

Now I currently use class D amps. I haven't done this sort of connection to know if they are fully transparent. My use of them vs other conventional high end gear makes me think they probably are or are very close with most speakers. So go ahead, pick a nice class D amp and feed it with your favorite SET.

This experiment also validates the idea such amps have a sound despite sounding as if they are better. Which also means a DSP produced plug in of the right quality is at least theoretically possible whether it has been done yet or not. You could convolve the sound of your favorite amp with the appropriate software on your own for digital playback.

Sounds like you put an over-sized tubed input buffer on your Spectral amp.

 

[Blizzard]

It's neither good news. Nor bad news. Just not news.
What it is, is your opinion.
That's great, I have mine too.
Welcome to the forums Merry Go Round where we now potentially spend the next three decades debating this point.
My interest will be piqued when these so-called cutting edge techs that only have just started to be developed mature in the market, and I get to hear one myself.
Until then, it's so-much hot air.
As it is, I absolutely love finding out about dsd in the last few months, and find in a lot of cases that I prefer the more urgent presentation of "lowly" rbcd, and the move from a £20k digital player playing dsd to a 31500 tt playing vinyl just takes me straight to the performer in a way no digital can. IMHO. And just that, no more no less.

You won't have an opinion until you hear it

 

[DaveC]

Personally my 100% digital setup with 100% discrete class A transistor signal path and class D amplification, has all the warmth I could ever ask for. And it does it all with phenomenal measurements as well. If I want to warm things up a bit more, I'll just change digital filter settings. I think the only way to add warmth without causing measurable degradation, is by digital filters, cables, and caps. Some resistors can sound warmer as well, but I think this is because the more premium ones are doing less harm to the signal.

IME, passive components that add warmth always degrade the sound in terms of fine detail, most copper interconnect cables will smooth over a ton of detail, so will warm sounding resistors like Kiwame, they just kill the music. OTOH, active components like tubes have the potential to add warmth and body, improve timbre and dimensionality without the same penalties as passive components, they preserve the fine detail rather than smearing it or smoothing it out, which results in a subjectively more realistic sound, and while it may not be to the strict definition of high fidelity, if it sounds more real that's an improvement imo.

So, while the effects of a smooth cable may not be measurable it's far more harmful than the quite measurable effects of a good tube circuit...

 

[esldude]

So you were able to "turbo charge" your push-pull triode sound "piggy-backed" onto Class D, and liked the results? But now you're using just Class D? Because after this revelation, you didn't like the results? Or you found that once you replicated it, you found Class D au naturel sounded just as good?
What am I missing here?

Well you are missing where I did this with class D amps. I specifically said I didn't. You are missing this was years ago, and a variety of reasons lead me along a different path. Class D au naturel sounds very unlike triode amps. Hence the reason you could pre-condition the input to the rather transparent Class D amps with the coloration of your choice. I didn't mention I do active Room correction which makes a big improvement. The main thing you are missing if you have a big preference for SET sound, but find the power/speakers constraints an issue, this is a simple way to make it all work with any speaker you choose.

I am not denigrating you for liking that sound. I would actively argue against it being a sound of superior fidelity. I understand how hard it is to believe from my prior experience. How it can sound in so many ways so much superior that it seems the only answer is SS amplification misses something tremendously important to musical enjoyment. Hence my incredibly shocking and tremendous surprise when I did the experiment and the results were not anywhere in the neighborhood of something I thought even possible. So by luck or whatever you could benefit if you will. Keep your head in the sand thinking my description is ludicrously impossible and you won't gain a thing from it.

Maybe you have some audiophile friends with a good SS or class D amp feeding power hungry speakers. Why not work up the few items to give it a try. It would be interesting and you will learn something either way it turns out. I know for a certain fact the truth of it. You could try it for your self and see.

 

[esldude]

Sounds like you put an over-sized tubed input buffer on your Spectral amp.

Yes, that is it exactly. Sounded glorious too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

You won't have an opinion until you hear it

Pop it in the post to me. Seriously. Make sure it's good for 230V.
I'll listen, compare, and post my findings.
I'm a very honest person, I'm prepared to drop my pants in public if I'm proved wrong.
I already challenged a foo-skeptic to come over and blind trial me re Entreq grounding and publish what I come up with, incl if I fail to pick things out correctly. The challenge was never taken up. Hmm, yes.
I have a chance to do some analog v analog dsdx4 rips a-b'ing, and see if I can tell the difference. Again, happy to hold my hands up.
So it can't be said I'm not open to venturing into testing areas that I've been rock solid in my preferences until now.
PM me if you want my address to send your magic box to me. Make sure you insure it, and send me sufficient funds to return it to you.

 

[Blizzard]

IME, passive components that add warmth always degrade the sound in terms of fine detail, most copper interconnect cables will smooth over a ton of detail, so will warm sounding resistors like Kiwame, they just kill the music. OTOH, active components like tubes have the potential to add warmth and body, improve timbre and dimensionality without the same penalties as passive components, they preserve the fine detail rather than smearing it or smoothing it out, which results in a subjectively more realistic sound, and while it may not be to the strict definition of high fidelity, if it sounds more real that's an improvement imo.

Some passive components are required, and those are the ones I'm talking about. Like xover parts in passive speakers, cables etc. But of course the best sounding part, is no part at all. I'm running the mids full range on one of my current speakers, and the midrange purity is outstanding. As for resistors for loudspeakers, I find the Dueland CAST's to be the most transparent. All though they do add a tiny bit of warmth. As for caps for tweeter's, I really like the Mundorf silver/oil's bypassed by the new Dueland Silver/wax/oil bypass caps. Yes they may add a bit of warmth, but to me it's good warmth.

 

[Blizzard]

Pop it in the post to me. Seriously. Make sure it's good for 230V.
I'll listen, compare, and post my findings.
I'm a very honest person, I'm prepared to drop my pants in public if I'm proved wrong.
I already challenged a foo-skeptic to come over and blind trial me re Entreq grounding and publish what I come up with, incl if I fail to pick things out correctly. The challenge was never taken up. Hmm, yes.
I have a chance to do some analog v analog dsdx4 rips a-b'ing, and see if I can tell the difference. Again, happy to hold my hands up.
So it can't be said I'm not open to venturing into testing areas that I've been rock solid in my preferences until now.
PM me if you want my address to send your magic box to me. Make sure you insure it, and send me sufficient funds to return it to you.

Sure once ready, add to cart, and I'll send you one. If you don't like, return within 30 days for your money back. I'll eat the shipping.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, Esldude, the result of this expt was that you confirmed/realised the tube sound was coloured, and was bettered by the Spectral, even though you'd always believed the triode sound was superior? If I've got this conclusion wrong, I need to sit in a dark room a while longer LOL.
And w/this conclusion, you've swung 180 degrees to Class D, and don't miss the inaccurate and coloured tube sound.
I salute what has been a radical reappraisal, borne of actual experience.
For me, I want this simple one-box a-b opportunity, and await Blizzard's box of tricks.