Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[Al M.]

I can be a big help to you here. You can have your SET sound with several hundred watts of power for stats if you like.

Do what I once did. In my case, I much prefer push-pull triode sound to SET, but to each his own.

I once had a triode amp I thought far better sounding, more detailed, dynamic, tonally rich and discriminating than any SS amp. I did an experiment, in an attempt to see how much of this wonderful sound was lost by quality SS amps. I loaded the output of my triode amp with an appropriate sized power resistor. I then used Vishay resistors to reduce voltage so the amp output was exactly unity gain with the input. Put in 2 volts, and get out 2 volts. I fed this over DIY interconnects made or the purpose to a Spectral power amp (best sounding SS in my opinion at the time). I wondered would the Spectral lose half or two thirds of the musical nuance, dynamics, spaciousness etc. To my great surprise I heard the sound of my beloved triode amp. Proving to me the Spectral with lower distortion, noise and wider bandwidth really was capable of fully reproducing the sound of the triode amp, and that the triode amp had a beautiful euphonic sound that was not high fidelity to the input.

Interesting. I once had a Spectral DMC-15 Pre/DMA-260 amp combo in my system. Very little difference in tonal balance and richness to my parallel push-pull triode amps (on my benign speaker load they are not sweating much). Yet push-pull tube amps distort less than SET amps to begin with, while obviously their nominal distortion figures are still much higher than that of a Spectral amp.

But you said already that you prefer push-pull triode over SET. It is not quite clear to me if your experiment was with push-pull or SET.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Blizz, VERY much look fwd.
What are we looking at? Simple switchable controls for 845 v 211 v 300B v 45 v so-called "see thru" Class D?
Can you provide controls also for Elrogs v WE v GE v Shuguang v Pvsane? Plus the literally hundreds of tubes out there.
While you're at it, I'd like an amp that at the push of a button can sound like a Halcro, a Dartzeel, an AR, a VTL, an Atmasphere, a Dave Berning.
Next can we get a set of controls that makes Jimmy Page on LZ2 sound as he does, and then mimic how it would have sounded had he run his guitar w/a modern SS amp
Maybe Tony Williams or Elvin Jones sounding like their drum kits were ProTooled??
I hate to sound facetious, but you ARE promising the Earth...

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz, VERY much look fwd.
What are we looking at? Simple switchable controls for 845 v 211 v 300B v 45 v so-called "see thru" Class D?
Can you provide controls also for Elrogs v WE v GE v Shuguang v Pvsane? Plus the literally hundreds of tubes out there.
While you're at it, I'd like an amp that at the push of a button can sound like a Halcro, a Dartzeel, an AR, a VTL, an Atmasphere, a Dave Berning.
Next can we get a set of controls that makes Jimmy Page on LZ2 sound as he does, and then mimic how it would have sounded had he run his guitar w/a modern SS amp?
I hate to sound facetious, but you ARE promising the Earth...

Think of it like S.A.M with the Devialet. Someone will need the $10K worth of measurement gear to take the measurement from the analog outs of what they want to emulate. Then the profile can be saved and added to an online database.

 

[esldude]

Interesting. I once had a Spectral DMC-15 Pre/DMA-260 amp combo in my system. Very little difference in tonal balance and richness to my parallel push-pull triode amps (on my benign speaker load they are not sweating much). Yet push-pull tube amps distort less than SET amps to begin with, while obviously their nominal distortion figures are still much higher than that of a Spectral amp.

But you said already that you prefer push-pull triode over SET. It is not quite clear to me if your experiment was with push-pull or SET.

My experiment was with push pull triodes. I do have experience with SET. Did that experiment with one of those and the same result. Sounded just like the SET. I didn't like the sound of the SET all that much anyway.

 

[Blizzard]

My experiment was with push pull triodes. I do have experience with SET. Did that experiment with one of those and the same result. Sounded just like the SET. I didn't like the sound of the SET all that much anyway.

Try emulating the Spectral sound through the push pull triode or the SET

 

[esldude]

So, Esldude, the result of this expt was that you confirmed/realised the tube sound was coloured, and was bettered by the Spectral, even though you'd always believed the triode sound was superior? If I've got this conclusion wrong, I need to sit in a dark room a while longer LOL.
And w/this conclusion, you've swung 180 degrees to Class D, and don't miss the inaccurate and coloured tube sound.
I salute what has been a radical reappraisal, borne of actual experience.
For me, I want this simple one-box a-b opportunity, and await Blizzard's box of tricks.

I am leaving out gory details over years and years. I didn't come to realize I liked the sound of the Spectral better. Even after realizing the Spectral was truly transparent, I preferred the colored sound. Nothing wrong with preferring a coloration except when you mistake that for superior fidelity and make other decisions upon the mistaken idea.

The experiment came from having worked on improving a triode amp until it was the best amp I had heard. An opinion shared by a few people I knew. I wondered at that point what more is possible? Is this amp 99% of perfect, is it 30% of perfect with many more improvements possible? I judged the Spectral at overall 60% of the sound quality of the triode amp. My idea was put the two in series. If the triode was near perfect the sound won't change. If it is half of what is possible even the Spectral will show the significant degradation. I never expected to hear more than 95% the same exact triode sound. A level of reproduction I did not believe the transistor amp capable of doing. I also reversed position of the amps after a few days. The Spectral was transparent. You could insert or remove it and hear no difference vs a piece of interconnect. Sacrilege I know, but the truth of what I heard.

The rest and how I end up with class D amps and DSP involves many other factors. One of them being a philosophical decision to pursue fidelity. With the idea once you have fidelity, you can do what Blizzard is suggesting by simulating our favorite amp in software. I wouldn't prefer transparent amps over that colored sound, but room correction made a big improvement which I did find to my liking. I have not gone back and tried DRC with triode amps. That might be even better. One only has so much time and so much money of course. Once I started doing amateur recording I became even more enamored with fidelity. Recordings are the biggest stumbling block to good sound the way most are done.

 

[esldude]

Try emulating the Spectral sound through the push pull triode or the SET

Yes, I reversed position of the amps and put the Spectral first. You couldn't tell it from a good interconnect. What I would call true transparency or straight wire with gain.

BTW, there is a French publication, which does this as part of their amp testing. Put an amp, load it to unity gain, and listen to it feeding another amp to judge coloration. Only a few amps pass that test in their estimation.

 

[Blizzard]

Yes, I reversed position of the amps and put the Spectral first. You couldn't tell it from a good interconnect. What I would call true transparency or straight wire with gain.

BTW, there is a French publication, which does this as part of their amp testing. Put an amp, load it to unity gain, and listen to it feeding another amp to judge coloration. Only a few amps pass that test in their estimation.

That's the test I asked Bruce B to do with the GG and the Merging Horus. Record a track via the GG analog outs with the Horus ADC and Pyramix in DSD 256, and playback on the Horus DAC. See if it sounds different than straight out of the GG connected to the same system. If you can't tell apart, that proves the ADC and DAC in the Horus with DSD 256 is perfectly transparent. Not sure why we don't see any actual tests that are interesting and useful like these ones preformed by the main publications. Might make it worth getting a subscription Although positive feedback did it with R2R and the Merging Horus and NADAC. This is what I've been trying to tell Mike L for months. Bruce was even there!

 

[esldude]

That's the test I told Bruce B to do with the GG and the Merging Horus. Record a track via the GG analog outs with the Horus ADC and Pyramix, and playback on the Horus DAC. See if it sounds different than straight out of the GG connected to the same system. If you can't tell apart, that proves the ADC and DAC in the Horus is perfectly transparent.

Good test. Would be a good thread. Record with wire and with a high quality ADC/DAC in the middle. Make files available for download. See if people can tell which is which by listening. Would be pretty convincing PR for the people making the gear which has no sound.

 

[Blizzard]

Good test. Would be a good thread. Record with wire and with a high quality ADC/DAC in the middle. Make files available for download. See if people can tell which is which by listening. Would be pretty convincing PR for the people making the gear which has no sound.

Yeah but nobody would believe it if they actually sounded the same. You need to record the sound from a well known piece of gear, and playback via a transparent system and see if it sounds the same. If people playback via a colored system, it won't sound right.

Edit: Or yeah I suppose you could play a DSD 256 file through the Horus/Hapi DAC section, and loop it back into the ADC and make a new DSD 256 copy. Then offer downloads for comparison. I think that's what you meant. It would be a cool test. If you can't tell apart, this mean's it would be the same when it's making a copy of mic feeds as well! The holy grail! It would also prove spending any more than $4000 on a DAC is a waste of money.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yeah but nobody would believe it if they actually sounded the same. You need to record the sound from a well known piece of gear, and playback via a transparent system and see if it sounds the same. If people playback via a colored system, it won't sound right.

Edit: Or yeah I suppose you could play a DSD 256 file through the Horus/Hapi DAC section, and loop it back into the ADC and make a new DSD 256 copy. Then offer downloads for comparison. I think that's what you meant. It would be a cool test. If you can't tell apart, this mean's it would be the same when it's making a copy of mic feeds as well! The holy grail! It would also prove spending any more than $4000 on a DAC is a waste of money.

But the elephant in the room is twofold:

1. You need to have access to all these reference sources that you wish to emulate and the recording gear to make the emulation. I am not sure you would be able to legally sell an emulation labelled as the exact product but I might be wrong.

2. No system is transparent to the ears of the listener - the fundamental issue are the speakers and room and their interaction.

So your emulations would sound different in every so called "neutral" system. Also I am confused a little about the methodology to derive the emulation - the final sound of an emulation of a SET would actually differ markedly by the speaker (frequency response and load) you use therefore measuring the outputs of the SET seems like a red herring.

 

[Blizzard]

But the elephant in the room is twofold:

1. You need to have access to all these reference sources that you wish to emulate and the recording gear to make the emulation. I am not sure you would be able to legally sell an emulation labelled as the exact product but I might be wrong.

2. No system is transparent to the ears of the listener - the fundamental issue are the speakers and room and their interaction.

So your emulations would sound different in every so called "neutral" system. Also I am confused a little about the methodology to derive the emulation - the final sound of an emulation of a SET would actually differ markedly by the speaker (frequency response and load) you use therefore measuring the outputs of the SET seems like a red herring.

Are you talking about this test? Because this is what you replied to. You can use any DSD 256 track for the test. Run it through the DAC and ADC of the HAPI or Horus and Pyramix. Make a new DSD 256 clone of the same track. Share both downloads on a forum thread, and see who can tell which is the original, and which is the copy. If nobody can tell, you know the ADC/DAC combined with DSD 256 is completely transparent.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Are you talking about this test? Because this is what you replied to. You can use any DSD 256 track for the test. Run it through the DAC and ADC of the HAPI or Horus and Pyramix. Make a new DSD 256 clone of the same track. Share both downloads on a forum thread, and see who can tell which is the original, and which is the copy. If nobody can tell, you know the ADC/DAC combined with DSD 256 is completely transparent.

No - I was replying in general terms not the test. The test is fine.

 

[Blizzard]

No - I was replying in general terms not the test. The test is fine.

Ok completely different subject. Well who says the profiles need to have specific names? The measurement can be taken from an amp that has 1 companies DAC, another companies pre connected to it. Or could be direct from a DAC doesn't matter. Call the profiles whatever you want. It will come preloaded with around 25 or so to start. 1 trip into a high end audio shop and a guy could pull another 25-30 measurements easily off different gear and gear combos.

Room interaction and speakers won't be any different. This isn't to duplicate speakers or room acoustics, it's to duplicate coloration profiles in the electronics.

You would pull the measurements off the amps while under minimal load where they sound the best. You won't have to worry about them ever straining, because powerful class D amps will now be doing the work.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I find that as I get older, so many interesting compromises arise in the simplest of life's decisions.
Toothpaste - one brand great for preventing decay, one for whitening, one for bad breath. Hmm, none do all three.
Dating a woman - one great between the sheets, one in the kitchen, the other for emotional support. Hmm, few do all three (***LADIES, DON'T HIT THE MESSENGER***lol!)
EVERY simple choice I have to make has to have in-depth thought, so little if anything in life is just a no-brainer in every respect.
Audio? Some of the toughest choices out there.
That's why I wonder Blizzard if you're out of high school yet .
The way you argue is like the kid who can eat between meals and think he can maintain his appetite
And believes that you can have it all w/amplification, every sound re tube/every brand can just be reduced to an algorythm, that what a swathe of a'fools love and find irreplaceable is a simple distortion, that can just be copied and pasted.
I admire people who just think the world is black and white, it makes getting up in the morning and getting thru the day just so dead simple. Other people who fret over such irrelevances must be totally confusing to you.

Blizz, these comments are made in light-hearted jest, but there remains a kernel of seriousness in what I'm saying.
I'm afraid I have to turn away from this thread if all I'm going to be told is that the SET magic, tubes in general, is JUST distortion. I'm happy to accept a good proportion is, but to in effect be told I'm just 100% misled by grunge is just plain insulting, and I'm sure I speak for many.
EVERY God damn show I go to, the sound in every Class D/Hi Rez room leaves me cold, those rooms w.tubes/vinyl always draw me in. Often i leave because the sound doesn't QUITE do it for me, but I'm always on a journey. The room w/SS/Hi Rez that works, one per show, is often spectacular, and i stay, but i don't detect any magic, and I leave the show convinced more than ever that no matter the shortcomings, tubes/vinyl just delivers the message, not just a portrayal by the messengers.

So, as I say, I'll bow out until someone w/a bit more rationality blended w/"life is complicated/never black and white" comes along to get this thread back on track.

Good luck w/your simplistic view of life - I hope it serves you well in relationships, money decisions, voting intentions, choice to be religious/what religion/any religion at all etc. LOL

 

[Blizzard]

I find that as I get older, so many interesting compromises arise in the simplest of life's decisions.
Toothpaste - one brand great for preventing decay, one for whitening, one for bad breath. Hmm, none do all three.
Dating a woman - one great between the sheets, one in the kitchen, the other for emotional support. Hmm, few do all three (***DON'T HIT THE MESSENGER***lol!)
EVERY simple choice I have to make has to have in-depth thought, so little if anything in life is just a no-brainer in every respect.
That's why I wonder Blizzard if you're out of high school yet .
The way you argue is like the kid who can eat between meals and maintain his appetite
And believes that you can have it all w/amplification, what a swathe of a'fools love and find irreplaceable is a simple distortion, that can just be copied and pasted.
I admire people who just think the world is black and white, it makes getting up in the morning and getting thru the day just so dead simple. other people who fret over so-called irrelevances must be totally confusing to you.

Blizz, these comments are made in light-hearted jest, but there remains a kernel of seriousness in what i'm saying.
I'm afraid i have to turn away from this thread if all i'm going to be told is that the SET magic, tubes in general, is JUST distortion. I'm happy to accept a good proportion is, but to in effect be told I'm just 100% misled by grunge is just plain insulting, and i'm sure i speak for many.

So, as i say, i'll bow out until someone w/a bit more rationality blended w/"life is complicated/never balck and white" comes along to get this thread back on track.

Good luck w/your simplistic view of life - i hope it serves you well in relationships, money decisions, voting intentions, choice to be religious/what religion/anny religion etc.

It's not just distortion, it's a combination of colorations that can be captured and emulated in the digital domain. I'm sorry if you thought these tubes etc were magical. And that through innovation we would never be able to surpass 1950's technology.

If anyone has a simplistic view it's you. We could put a man on the moon in 1969, but in 2016 we still can't emulate the sound of tubes in the digital domain?

I suppose flight was never possible either? Or electricity inside modern homes? The lightbulb? radio? list goes on.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Blizz, unlike the guys on the "GG/mods" thread who get feverishly agitated by your proclamations, I'm not one of them. The curse of non verbal comms is that it's SO easy to be offended, when the other person is just being tenuous and opinionated. I'm sure we'd agree on a lot face to face. And I'm sure we'd disagree on more LOL. So, when I say I'm pulling out re these comments, it's NOT because I'm mad or feeling put down. It's just that it's pointless to me w/out evidence of a box in front of me. I have nothing to add, if my life experience puts me 180 away from your simpler POV. But as you say, you've heard the tech, I and many others, haven't.
You have my PM inbox when you want my address to send your "one box fits all" device to me. Make sure you get Elrog, Pvsane, WE and GE tubes' signatures on there, 845/211/300B/45 please. If I'm going to have choice, I want it all !
DO NOT expect to send me a box w/these options "empty" awaiting ME to sample/load them. I want a whole slew of tubes and amp brand signatures already preloaded.

PS I find this the most pointless set of replies I've EVER posted on WBF. If this really is the future of audio comments, expect to hear less from me (sorry, adoring fans).

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Ok completely different subject. Well who says the profiles need to have specific names? The measurement can be taken from an amp that has 1 companies DAC, another companies pre connected to it. Or could be direct from a DAC doesn't matter. Call the profiles whatever you want. It will come preloaded with around 25 or so to start. 1 trip into a high end audio shop and a guy could pull another 25-30 measurements easily off different gear and gear combos.

>> no high end shop will let you come in and rip off their equipment so that you can sell your solution and put them out of business.

Room interaction and speakers won't be any different. This isn't to duplicate speakers or room acoustics, it's to duplicate coloration profiles in the electronics.

>> you missed the point. Your emulation won't be able to dynamically adjust to the speaker profile. The sound of a SET in a system is influenced by the speaker load - you can't treat them in a mutually exclusive fashion.

You would pull the measurements off the amps while under minimal load where they sound the best. You won't have to worry about them ever straining, because powerful class D amps will now be doing the work.

>> again - missed the point. The sound of a SET system is influenced by the load.

Putting is simply - you can't emulate an Ongaku (as an example) with your methodology. The sound of the Ongaku will change depending on speakers. This is the same of most of these products.

 

[Blizzard]

Ok completely different subject. Well who says the profiles need to have specific names? The measurement can be taken from an amp that has 1 companies DAC, another companies pre connected to it. Or could be direct from a DAC doesn't matter. Call the profiles whatever you want. It will come preloaded with around 25 or so to start. 1 trip into a high end audio shop and a guy could pull another 25-30 measurements easily off different gear and gear combos.

>> no high end shop will let you come in and rip off their equipment so that you can sell your solution and put them out of business.

Room interaction and speakers won't be any different. This isn't to duplicate speakers or room acoustics, it's to duplicate coloration profiles in the electronics.

>> you missed the point. Your emulation won't be able to dynamically adjust to the speaker profile. The sound of a SET in a system is influenced by the speaker load - you can't treat them in a mutually exclusive fashion.

You would pull the measurements off the amps while under minimal load where they sound the best. You won't have to worry about them ever straining, because powerful class D amps will now be doing the work.

>> again - missed the point. The sound of a SET system is influenced by the load.

Putting is simply - you can't emulate an Ongaku (as an example) with your methodology. The sound of the Ongaku will change depending on speakers. This is the same of most of these products.

Getting the sound profiles won't be something you will have to worry about. Maybe they will come from owners of gear who want to trade up, yet still have the sound profile of their old gear on a preset with their new gear . So they send it in to get measured, and another profile goes into the database.


Loadspeaker load can be simulated. Do you think every single speaker you connect a SET amp up to subjects the amp to the same load? No, but I can bet there's an optimum load condition where the amp performs at its peak. This is the conditions the measurements will be pulled under. So the reproduction under all loads from any speaker will sound like the SET under the best conditions. Only not lacking low end drive.

 

[Al M.]

My experiment was with push pull triodes. I do have experience with SET. Did that experiment with one of those and the same result. Sounded just like the SET. I didn't like the sound of the SET all that much anyway.

Either the push pull triode amp was intrinsically colored or the speaker load was too much to handle for it. One comment I have repeatedly heard about my system over the years is that my amps "don't sound like tube amps".