Greg Weaver Reviews Center Stage 2 In Positive Feedback

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
761
168
43
California
#41
Hi KeithR

Center Stage are the product of 18 years of experimentation and development. The final idea came from my son who is finishing his Ph.D. in EE at Georgia Tech. He’s been offered Post-Doc positions at MIT, Johns Hopkins, the University of Berlin and, GT. So, perhaps the explanation is that a singular individual imagined an application of existing physics which furthers high end audio because his dad asked him to. Greg calls it as he hears it. Call me if you want to talk.

All the Best,

Joe
Why was a Center Stage 2 released in relative short order if the original was a product of 18 years of R&D?
 
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joelavrencik

Industry Expert
Nov 15, 2016
237
30
28
Chicago
www.criticalmasssystems.com
#42
Just before Steve made his first post on the first thread, I asked him if he was familiar with the 3 stages of acceptance. He said no, so I told him he was about to experience a head jarring roller coaster ride.

When a new and radical concept is introduced into a group of similarly-interested individuals of varying experience and understanding there is a predictable pattern of response to the new concept:

Stage 1) full frontal assault

Stage 2) Ridicule

Stage 3) Acceptance of the concept as a well-known and longstanding fact

When the only criticism that can be mustered comes from the uninformed, that criticism is dead on arrival. The disturbing outbursts we just experienced are the death rattle of Stages 1 and 2.

Greg, you didn’t deserve this. You are the better man because you spoke truth from experience. Those of us who create change and report change live the 3 stages. Forgive the full-frontal assault. Forgive the ridicule. This won’t be the last time this happens. Enjoy it. It means you’re doing your job. We need you!

Joe
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
8,239
786
113
E. England
#43
Full frontal assault. Ridicule.
Joe, you're overreacting and sounding totally ridiculous.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
8,239
786
113
E. England
#44
KeithR regularly comes on my system thread originated by Ron R and jabs me re my spending and prioritising decisions re tweaks. I haven't thrown my toys out of the pram yet.

At least we can breathe a sigh of relief that Greg hasn't gone all Peter Breuninger on the nay sayers.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
8,239
786
113
E. England
#46
Well Joe, the thanks goes to you for the accolades bestowed in yr previous post. It's good for grown men to publicly display emotion. Especially those in this hobby.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,211
1,248
113
London
#47
Well Joe, the thanks goes to you for the accolades bestowed in yr previous post. It's good for grown men to publicly display emotion. Especially those in this hobby.
In this hobby most grown men are entering their second childhood

For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again towards childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
8,239
786
113
E. England
#48
Yes Ked, but the pocket money is a bit bigger.
 
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bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,211
1,248
113
London
#49

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
8,239
786
113
E. England
#50
Ked, are you sure you compared every poet and novelist, and then re read them in different light levels, before tentatively coming to the decision to choose Shakespeare for this quote? Only to immediately feel you need to reconsider again?

Or is the Bard's middle name Lampi?
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,532
432
83
North Shore of Boston
#51
Other than being extremely happy for Steve's fantastic success in evaluating Joe's footers himself, in persuading Joe to allow Steve to market them as a stand-alone (and not solely OEM) product and in selling them, I have no dog in this hunt.

As a general matter on WBF a prima facie empirical report beats a theoretical hypothesis to the contrary. Here we have the actual experiential review of Greg Weaver, a highly respected and long-tenured high-end audio reviewer, versus KeithR's reasonable theoretical skepticisms about the CS footers' reported efficacy and value.

I, too, am fascinated by and, candidly, baffled about the amazingly, and almost entirely uniformly, positive reports members and reviewers alike have written about the CS footers.
NIce post Ron. Steve, Joe, and all others involved with this product deserve to be congratulated for bringing joy to their customers and developing a product that solicits such passion. I also agree that direct experience trumps theory, though Joe's capable and accomplished son must have started out with a theory.

Yours is an interesting comment about the uniformity of reports about the efficacy of these footers. We do regularly read negative reports from members about products they have tried in their systems or heard elsewhere, but curiously, not in this case. Are we to assume that these footers have been found to be revelatory by everyone who has heard them? Surely there are some people who have direct experience with these and have decided to make use of the 30 day return policy. I suspect that they just choose not to discuss their own experiences with the rest of the forum.

Perhaps it is because of the reaction one sees in threads like this one.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
4,467
335
83
Greater Boston
#52
#53
Just before Steve made his first post on the first thread, I asked him if he was familiar with the 3 stages of acceptance. He said no, so I told him he was about to experience a head jarring roller coaster ride.

When a new and radical concept is introduced into a group of similarly-interested individuals of varying experience and understanding there is a predictable pattern of response to the new concept:

Stage 1) full frontal assault

Stage 2) Ridicule

Stage 3) Acceptance of the concept as a well-known and longstanding fact

When the only criticism that can be mustered comes from the uninformed, that criticism is dead on arrival. The disturbing outbursts we just experienced are the death rattle of Stages 1 and 2.

Greg, you didn’t deserve this. You are the better man because you spoke truth from experience. Those of us who create change and report change live the 3 stages. Forgive the full-frontal assault. Forgive the ridicule. This won’t be the last time this happens. Enjoy it. It means you’re doing your job. We need you!

Joe
Hello Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and support on this matter. I’m well aware that reporting from the trenches leaves me open to challenges. That I don’t mind. Legitimate questions or concerns about my findings or methods do not bother me. Everyone, no matter how careful or well-intentioned, can make mistakes, myself included!

What annoyed me here was a Forum Member, who clearly had zero personal experience with either systems of the caliber I was writing about or the products in question, made sweeping uninformed and, from my perspective, embarrassingly foolish statements.

My first reaction was to take the time to address the flaws in his first assertion (that a very expensive speaker would “obviously” make more difference than any silly footers) and elucidate why this was a mistaken assumption.

This same member responded with no concern for any of the information offered, either in both of the original reviews or the reasoned and enhanced response I had just offered. For the record here, one member called me directly after that response to say that I had perfectly “nailed” that explanation.

I’m sorry, but when someone’s response does not address the content under discussion and they deliberately skirt the legitimate issues by trying to shift the focus off the facts using poorly constructed, utterly irrelevant diversions (like saying that because I had just taken possession of a Von Schweikert Audio speaker for review, that the opinions of that company’s chief designer on the performance of these footers was somehow invalid), I decided to take each false statement (like that I never removed the footers), foolish assertion (that my ancillary equipment had any bearing on the results – I had to explain how an experiment works, that changing only one item at a time, regardless of all the others in play, is a standard testing protocol), and uninformed statement (that the addition of a $300,000 speaker clearly trumps the contributions of these footers), apart…in detail.

My response, which included calling a spade a spade – i.e., pointing out that this member (and another member with no experience with the products under discussion who just deiced to pile on) either clearly can’t read, can’t comprehend what he reads, or is just responding to show how smart he (thinks he) is or cause trouble. I proceeded to controvert each false assumption, assertion, and claim that he’d made. And, given his arrogance in ignoring the facts combined with his unwarranted self-righteous tone, suggesting that my statements were all just so much hyperbolic bull, I drove each point home. I further punctuated that response by saying that if members could post such irresponsible, uninformed, and clearly irrelevant crap, with no one calling them on it, that perhaps this platform might not be the right place for me to expend my considered efforts.

Well, by defending myself as vehemently as this poser had launched into me, suddenly I’d become the attacker. So be it. It wasn’t long into the day yesterday before I stated getting independent communications from other colleagues and friends who are also forum members that these two members (and a few others, whose screen names were shared with me) are well-known for such vacuous, uninformed, and off-topic responses. It seems that most of the forum users are used to this type of response from these members. I wasn't.

I will only add this. IF I do decide to frequent this forum moving forward, I will continue to call bullshit whenever and where ever it comes up. And, armed this new perspective, knowing that this is just how it may be here, I may also simply chose to ignore such empty and invalid responses. Thanks for the outpouring of support from all my industry friends and colleagues who took the time to reach out to me and both thank me for calling it as it is, and for my willingness to engage in such platforms.
 
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Bodhi

Active Member
Apr 20, 2014
750
223
43
Melbourne, Australia
#54
Thanks for the outpouring of support from all my industry friends and colleagues who took the time to reach out to me and both thank me for calling it as it is, and for my willingness to engage in such platforms.
Greg don't forget the regular members here who offered supportive comments about your review :).
 

joelavrencik

Industry Expert
Nov 15, 2016
237
30
28
Chicago
www.criticalmasssystems.com
#55
Hello Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and support on this matter. I’m well aware that reporting from the trenches leaves me open to challenges. That I don’t mind. Legitimate questions or concerns about my findings or methods do not bother me.

What annoyed me here was a Forum Member, who clearly had zero personal experience with either systems of the caliber I was writing about or the products in question, made sweeping uninformed and, from my perspective, embarrassingly foolish statements.

My first reaction was to take the time to address the flaws in his first assertion (that a very expensive speaker would “obviously” make more difference than any silly footers) and elucidate why this was a mistaken assumption.

This same member responded with no concern for any of the information offered, either in both of the original reviews or the reasoned and enhanced response I had just offered. For the record here, one member called me directly after that response to say that I had perfectly “nailed” that explanation.

I’m sorry, but when someone’s response does not address the content under discussion and they deliberately skirt the legitimate issues by trying to shift the focus off the facts using poorly constructed, utterly irrelevant diversions (like saying that because I had just taken possession of a Von Schweikert Audio speaker for review, that the opinions of that company’s chief designer on the performance of these footers was somehow invalid), I decided to take each false statement (like that I never removed the footers), foolish assertion (that my ancillary equipment had any bearing on the results – I had to explain how an experiment works, that changing only one item at a time, regardless of all the others in play, is a standard testing protocol), and uninformed statement (that the addition of a $300,000 speaker clearly trumps the contributions of these footers), apart…in detail.

My response, which included calling a spade a spade – i.e., pointing out that this member (and another member with no experience with the products under discussion who just deiced to pile on) either clearly can’t read, can’t comprehend what he reads, or is just responding to show how smart he (thinks he) is or cause trouble. I proceeded to controvert each false assumption, assertion, and claim that he’d made. And, given his arrogance in ignoring the facts combined with his unwarranted self-righteous tone, suggesting that my statements were all just so much hyperbolic bull, I drove each point home. I further punctuated that response by saying that if members could post such irresponsible, uninformed, and clearly irrelevant crap, with no one calling them on it, that perhaps this platform might not be the right place for me to expend my considered efforts.

Well, by defending myself as vehemently as this poser had launched into me, suddenly I’d become the attacker. So be it. It wasn’t long into the day yesterday before I stated getting independent communications from other colleagues and friends who are also forum members that these two members (and a few others, whose screen names were shared with me) are well-known for such vacuous, uninformed, and off-topic responses. It seems that most of the forum users are used to this type of response from these members. I wasn't.

I will only add this. IF I do decide to frequent this forum moving forward, I will continue to call bullshit whenever and where ever it comes up. And, armed this new perspective, knowing that this is just how it may be here, I may also simply chose to ignore such empty and invalid responses. Thanks for the outpouring of support from all my industry friends and colleagues who took the time to reach out to me and both thank me for calling it as it is, and for my willingness to engage in such platforms.
Greg

IMO, there are a lot of great people here. It's hard to know what the right thing to do is with the stubbornly uninformed. The back and forth, contentious as it may be, usually brings new information and clarifications to the discussion. It certainly did here and that's a good thing. The bad thing is that it can leave scars at the personal level.

You have every right to defend your work. .......But every now and then Joel you just gotta say, what the fuck.....to yourself. :) I'd shake it off. Truth always wins out.

Please don't leave.

J
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#56
Hello Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and support on this matter. I’m well aware that reporting from the trenches leaves me open to challenges. That I don’t mind. Legitimate questions or concerns about my findings or methods do not bother me.

What annoyed me here was a Forum Member, who clearly had zero personal experience with either systems of the caliber I was writing about or the products in question, made sweeping uninformed and, from my perspective, embarrassingly foolish statements.

My first reaction was to take the time to address the flaws in his first assertion (that a very expensive speaker would “obviously” make more difference than any silly footers) and elucidate why this was a mistaken assumption.

This same member responded with no concern for any of the information offered, either in both of the original reviews or the reasoned and enhanced response I had just offered. For the record here, one member called me directly after that response to say that I had perfectly “nailed” that explanation.

I’m sorry, but when someone’s response does not address the content under discussion and they deliberately skirt the legitimate issues by trying to shift the focus off the facts using poorly constructed, utterly irrelevant diversions (like saying that because I had just taken possession of a Von Schweikert Audio speaker for review, that the opinions of that company’s chief designer on the performance of these footers was somehow invalid), I decided to take each false statement (like that I never removed the footers), foolish assertion (that my ancillary equipment had any bearing on the results – I had to explain how an experiment works, that changing only one item at a time, regardless of all the others in play, is a standard testing protocol), and uninformed statement (that the addition of a $300,000 speaker clearly trumps the contributions of these footers), apart…in detail.

My response, which included calling a spade a spade – i.e., pointing out that this member (and another member with no experience with the products under discussion who just deiced to pile on) either clearly can’t read, can’t comprehend what he reads, or is just responding to show how smart he (thinks he) is or cause trouble. I proceeded to controvert each false assumption, assertion, and claim that he’d made. And, given his arrogance in ignoring the facts combined with his unwarranted self-righteous tone, suggesting that my statements were all just so much hyperbolic bull, I drove each point home. I further punctuated that response by saying that if members could post such irresponsible, uninformed, and clearly irrelevant crap, with no one calling them on it, that perhaps this platform might not be the right place for me to expend my considered efforts.

Well, by defending myself as vehemently as this poser had launched into me, suddenly I’d become the attacker. So be it. It wasn’t long into the day yesterday before I stated getting independent communications from other colleagues and friends who are also forum members that these two members (and a few others, whose screen names were shared with me) are well-known for such vacuous, uninformed, and off-topic responses. It seems that most of the forum users are used to this type of response from these members. I wasn't.

I will only add this. IF I do decide to frequent this forum moving forward, I will continue to call bullshit whenever and where ever it comes up. And, armed this new perspective, knowing that this is just how it may be here, I may also simply chose to ignore such empty and invalid responses. Thanks for the outpouring of support from all my industry friends and colleagues who took the time to reach out to me and both thank me for calling it as it is, and for my willingness to engage in such platforms.
Hi Greg

Speaking for WBF I can say we are happy that you’ve not only taken the time to respond but so also to give us a second chance here.

Thanks again
 

joelavrencik

Industry Expert
Nov 15, 2016
237
30
28
Chicago
www.criticalmasssystems.com
#57
NIce post Ron. Steve, Joe, and all others involved with this product deserve to be congratulated for bringing joy to their customers and developing a product that solicits such passion. I also agree that direct experience trumps theory, though Joe's capable and accomplished son must have started out with a theory.

Yours is an interesting comment about the uniformity of reports about the efficacy of these footers. We do regularly read negative reports from members about products they have tried in their systems or heard elsewhere, but curiously, not in this case. Are we to assume that these footers have been found to be revelatory by everyone who has heard them? Surely there are some people who have direct experience with these and have decided to make use of the 30 day return policy. I suspect that they just choose not to discuss their own experiences with the rest of the forum.

Perhaps it is because of the reaction one sees in threads like this one.
Hi PeterA

I know of 2 returns. One user said that suddenly some high frequencies jumped into one of his tweeters. You and I both know this is speaker set up. One of the tweets was misaligned. But they came back before we could make suggestions. The other was another loudspeaker placement issue too, I think. I don't know of anything else.

All the Best

Joe
 
#58
Greg don't forget the regular members here who offered supportive comments about your review :).
Hello Bodhi,

Thanks for the reminder. I had no intention of excluding mentioning the support of other forum members, such as yourself or forum founder Steve Williams, in my message. It was an oversight, and I apologize for not thinking of it before you so kindly pointed it out. Have a great weekend!
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
4,467
335
83
Greater Boston
#59
Ahem. So Greg writes that a $325,000 system upgrade elsewhere wouldn’t be as transformative as his $13k in new feet- right. If any footer even made the difference he’s talking about he needs to find better made components.

Sorry Doc, I’m afraid I don’t understand this one.
Yes, I don't either. The footers may be excellent, but this seems naked hyperbole. Even if Greg thinks that way, I'd rather live with a review that understates the improvement for the sake of sheer credibility. I don't think the review as is written does the product any favor. It has backfired in fact, as evident from the emotions expressed on this thread.

Greg should not live in the delusion that WBF is an unusually nasty rabbit hole. If here he gets the reactions that he got, the readers of his review elsewhere will not have much of a different reaction.

When I wrote the review of my speakers:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/review-reference-3a-reflector-monitors.26056/

I was very careful not to overstate any aspect and I may have undershot on one. You might not believe that from reading my glowing review, but I think the speakers are that good. Yet I was very careful with what I was saying, and with not glossing over weaknesses of the speakers either, in order not to lose credibility and have happen exactly what happened to Greg's review. And the reactions to my review were very positive.
 
#60
Yes, I don't either. The footers may be excellent, but this seems naked hyperbole. Even if Greg thinks that way, I'd rather live with a review that understates the improvement for the sake of sheer credibility. I don't think the review as is written does the product any favor. It has backfired in fact, as evident from the emotions expressed on this thread.

Greg should not live in the delusion that WBF is an unusually nasty rabbit hole. If here he gets the reactions that he got, the readers of his review elsewhere will not have much of a different reaction.

When I wrote the review of my speakers:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/review-reference-3a-reflector-monitors.26056/

I was very careful not to overstate any aspect and I may have undershot on one. You might not believe that from reading my glowing review, but I think the speakers are that good. Yet I was very careful with what I was saying, and with not glossing over weaknesses of the speakers either, in order not to lose credibility and have happen exactly what happened to Greg's review. And the reactions to my review were very positive.
This is such a waste... But I can say you are partially right. You DON'T get it! ;-)

Again, someone with NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with the products under discussion thinking anything they think or say about the products performance matters! Guess what? It doesn't. YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THEM. Your opinions on how they sound are therefore meaningless! Get it? Your unfounded opinion has no validity! ZERO.

Virtually everyone else who -- by the way, unlike you -- has actually heard the things, says that they are a once in a decade (maybe even two) advance, that they are more of a component than an accessory, and that they are ground breaking. Simply because those findings seem unlikely or incomprehensible to you, you've deluded yourself into thinking you have any right to speak about what they actually do. This will be the last time I say this politely. If you have not heard the items under discussion, you have absolutely right to voice any unfounded statements on what they can or cannot do (because you DON'T KNOW) or to disparage me or the validity of my reporting.
 
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