Greg Weaver Reviews Center Stage 2 In Positive Feedback

#61
Attention everyone! Please Keep Calm and Control Your Itches. (I know you are itching to try these footers now. I am too...hehe :D)

Tang :p
I’m with you Tang, all this extra hubub to a review has significantly peaked my interest. Question becomes, where does one begin? (And the next question, where does it end.)
 
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Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 14, 2015
565
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#62
This is such a waste... Again, someone with NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with the products under discussion thinking anything they think or say about the products performance matters! Guess what? It doesn't. YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THEM. Your opinions on how they sound are therefore meaningless! Get it? Your unfounded opinion has no validity! ZERO.

When everyone else who -- by the way, unlike you, has actually heard the things -- says that they are a once in a decade (maybe even two) advance, that they are more of a component than an accessory, that they are ground breaking, simply because those findings seem unlikely or incomprehensible to you, you've deluded yourself into thinking you have any right to speak about what they actually do. This will be the last time I say this politely. If you have not heard the items under discussion, you have absolutely right to voice any unfounded statements on what they can or cannot do (because you DON'T KNOW) or to disparage me or the validity of my reporting.
Yes, I don't either. The footers may be excellent, but this seems naked hyperbole. Even if Greg thinks that way, I'd rather live with a review that understates the improvement for the sake of sheer credibility. I don't think the review as is written does the product any favor. It has backfired in fact, as evident from the emotions expressed on this thread.

Greg should not live in the delusion that WBF is an unusually nasty rabbit hole. If here he gets the reactions that he got, the readers of his review elsewhere will not have much of a different reaction.

When I wrote the review of my speakers:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/review-reference-3a-reflector-monitors.26056/

I was very careful not to overstate any aspect and I may have undershot on one. You might not believe that from reading my glowing review, but I think the speakers are that good. Yet I was very careful with what I was saying, and with not glossing over weaknesses of the speakers either, in order not to lose credibility and have happen exactly what happened to Greg's review. And the reactions to my review were very positive.
LMFAO!

"Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results"
- Albert Einstein
 
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Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 14, 2015
565
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18
California
www.vonschweikert.com
#63
This is such a waste... But I can say you are partially right. You DON'T get it! ;-)

Again, someone with NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with the products under discussion thinking anything they think or say about the products performance matters! Guess what? It doesn't. YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THEM. Your opinions on how they sound are therefore meaningless! Get it? Your unfounded opinion has no validity! ZERO.

Virtually everyone else who -- by the way, unlike you -- has actually heard the things, says that they are a once in a decade (maybe even two) advance, that they are more of a component than an accessory, and that hey are ground breaking. Simply because those findings seem unlikely or incomprehensible to you, you've deluded yourself into thinking you have any right to speak about what they actually do. This will be the last time I say this politely. If you have not heard the items under discussion, you have absolutely right to voice any unfounded statements on what they can or cannot do (because you DON'T KNOW) or to disparage me or the validity of my reporting.
You learn quickly which opinions are worth your consideration lol
 
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JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
11,089
63
48
Manila, Philippines
#64
Start with the Pre Bob. Since it's at the heart of things (at least for those with multiple sources) that's typically where I try things for the first time.

I haven't been on the forum much for some time. Some of my friends here know why but suffice it to say that my absence has nothing to do with the forum or even the hobby in general. Just going through sad, sad times.

Compared to many if not most members here, I've been in the hobby for a relatively short time. Not even 30 years in earnest. I mention that just because by the time I was infected, many of the most contentious issues had tamed down as the frauds withered and those that did have benefit ultimately survived. By the time I came in tip toes were no longer a big deal. Today's proliferation of footers probably trace roots way back to them.

There will always be those looking to build a better mouse trap and there will always be those who will choose to just get a cat. LOL

What I've come to accept is that these do make differences. I went from simple after market spikes to copper and brass, tried all kinds of materials in different shapes and sizes, some worked for me and some didn't. One leaked oil and ruined some furniture even. Many I have owned, many popular to this day, I never deride, I'm not being polite or am I trying particularly hard to be ethical since I am part of the industry. It is simply because what might have not worked or worked in a limited fashion for me just might be what somebody else needs at a particular point in his personal process.

I have CS footers in use, both V1 and V2. As I said before, they aren't coming out. They work for me so they stay. I don't even get bothered by all the naysaying. I just don't care. If somebody doesn't want to try, he loses nothing. I gained, good for me. The other guys? No problem. Enjoy what you have.

I've been asked for advice here countless times over the years. I think I have a pretty high batting average. I'm not selfish with what little I know but I am selfish with my time and I will not burn that time on any more negativity.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
4,118
130
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Greater Boston
#65
This is such a waste... But I can say you are partially right. You DON'T get it! ;-)

Again, someone with NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with the products under discussion thinking anything they think or say about the products performance matters! Guess what? It doesn't. YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THEM. Your opinions on how they sound are therefore meaningless! Get it? Your unfounded opinion has no validity! ZERO.

Virtually everyone else who -- by the way, unlike you -- has actually heard the things, says that they are a once in a decade (maybe even two) advance, that they are more of a component than an accessory, and that they are ground breaking. Simply because those findings seem unlikely or incomprehensible to you, you've deluded yourself into thinking you have any right to speak about what they actually do. This will be the last time I say this politely. If you have not heard the items under discussion, you have absolutely right to voice any unfounded statements on what they can or cannot do (because you DON'T KNOW) or to disparage me or the validity of my reporting.
Greg, I am not surprised that you totally misread me.

Read again, and very carefully, what I said:

"The footers may be excellent, but this seems naked hyperbole. Even if Greg thinks that way, I'd rather live with a review that understates the improvement for the sake of sheer credibility."

Let me analyze for you:

a) I conceded that the footers may indeed be excellent. I have not stated an opinion about them since I have not heard them
b) to a reader who has not heard them (and that is most of us) your statement that the footers makes such a difference as if you have a doubly expensive system with them in it, is bound to seem naked hyperbole, regardless if you think it is true or not
c) even if you think that your statement is true, you should not have expressed it that way, because it is in fact so unbelievable to anyone who has not heard the footers that it just cannot possibly come across as credible -- even if it were true!
d) because the statement as it is written is not credible, regardless if it is true or not, for the product's sake you should never have made such a strong statement.

Why do I say for the product's sake? Because evidently it backfired. And let me repeat: if you think that the reaction at WBF to your review is particularly nasty, I have news for you: WBF is not a particularly nasty place, and if you got the reaction that you did get here, you will get the same reaction from readers elsewhere. Few people, other than those who may have heard them, will take the footers seriously after such a review.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
5,570
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Beverly Hills, CA
#66
Thank you for returning, Greg! :)
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#67
. Few people, other than those who may have heard them, will take the footers seriously after such a review
Hi Al

Not sure I agree with you. Since yesterday’s dust up my phone hasn’t stopped ringing from members everywhere that want more information as well as wanting to try the feet.
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 14, 2015
565
16
18
California
www.vonschweikert.com
#68
Greg, I am not surprised that you totally misread me.

Read again, and very carefully, what I said:

"The footers may be excellent, but this seems naked hyperbole. Even if Greg thinks that way, I'd rather live with a review that understates the improvement for the sake of sheer credibility."

Let me analyze for you:

a) I conceded that the footers may indeed be excellent. I have not stated an opinion about them since I have not heard them
b) to a reader who has not heard them (and that is most of us) your statement that the footers makes such a difference as if you have a doubly expensive system with them in it, is bound to seem naked hyperbole, regardless if you think it is true or not
c) even if you think that your statement is true, you should not have expressed it that way, because it is in fact so unbelievable to anyone who has not heard the footers that it just cannot possibly come across as credible -- even if it were true!
d) because the statement as it is written is not credible, regardless if it is true or not, for the product's sake you should never have made such a strong statement.

Why do I say for the product's sake? Because evidently it backfired. And let me repeat: if you think that the reaction at WBF to your review is particularly nasty, I have news for you: WBF is not a particularly nasty place, and if you got the reaction that you did get here, you will get the same reaction from readers elsewhere. Few people, other than those who may have heard them, will take the footers seriously after such a review.
Of the best systems I have heard in the world there are a few common themes, the CS Footers are one of them lol
 

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
3,208
169
63
Marina del Rey, CA
#69
To all - below is what I consider condescending, personal attacks. Please note, I criticized Greg's review only (not his intellect, system, or person) and in a very diplomatic way, even highlighting the thoughtful components of its description. I yet still after all of this, INVITED HIM INTO MY HOUSE. I have a dozen people who have relayed the exact same thing to me privately.

But enough is enough, unfortunately another Peter B has joined the forum. I'm officially out now. I can't hang with the "wheat" apparently and no nothing about audio because of my "lack of experience with such caliber systems"

I also strongly disagree how the reviewer has been supported by manufacturers in this thread which lowers his credibility. I feel reviews should be absolutely isolated from interested parties in order to retain objectivity. The blurring of the lines makes me (and others) uneasy.

KeithR

It seems clear that you have no real idea how system synergy and upgrading work.
Please refrain from shooting an extremely well-informed and educated messenger, one with over four decades in and around the high-performance audio industry, for heralding news that seems unlikely or incomprehensible to you.
KeithR, DaveyF, and others who appear as ill-equipped to deal with logic and debate,
What has become clear to me by your over-reaching and vacuous response is that you either cannot read, cannot comprehend what you read, or are just ignoring reality and the facts.
Clearly, if you knew anything about how to debate, to use logic, or, dare I say it, had any understanding of engineering, you wouldn’t embarrass yourself making such an incongruous analogy.
You clearly dug into something somewhere to find that list.
Again, this leads me to believe that either you didn’t read or cannot comprehend all the information in the reviews, or you aren't much of a critical thinker.
Beside apparently not being able to comprehend what you read, an intelligent and reasonable person would realize just how meaningless, unsupportable, and uniformed your implied bias from that "connection" becomes.
you clearly have little understanding of, or experience with, such systems.
but you, (and seemingly a good number of others), are clearly not here to learn, teach, or share useful information….If this is typical of the culture here at WhatsBestForum, you won’t have to worry about me wasting any more time here. I have much better things to do with my time than spanking flamers and trolls…
What annoyed me here was a Forum Member, who clearly had zero personal experience with either systems of the caliber I was writing about or the products in question, made sweeping uninformed and, from my perspective, embarrassingly foolish statements.
i.e., pointing out that this member (and another member with no experience with the products under discussion who just deiced to pile on) either clearly can’t read, can’t comprehend what he reads, or is just responding to show how smart he (thinks he) is or cause trouble.
And, given his arrogance in ignoring the facts combined with his unwarranted self-righteous tone, suggesting that my statements were all just so much hyperbolic bull, I drove each point home.
PS. Pot calling kettle on the last one.
 
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Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
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Greater Boston
#70
But enough is enough, unfortunately another Peter B has joined the forum. I'm officially out now and strongly considering cancelling my account. I can't hang with the "wheat" apparently and no nothing about audio because of my "lack of experience with such caliber systems"
Yes, sometimes the flat-out snobbery in this place seems unbearable.

Fortunately, the snobbery does not show up that often, so just keep hanging in there.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
5,570
316
83
Beverly Hills, CA
#71
Why don't each of us who has NOT auditioned the footers (including me) hold our skepticism in abeyance for now?
 

Joe Whip

Active Member
Feb 8, 2014
1,106
5
38
Wayne, PA
#72
It has always seemed to me that if you want to be a reviewer in the internet age or a participant in audio as well as other hobby related forums, you need to have a thick skin. I have already opined about how I felt my one set of footers improved the sound of my room. A friend already told me I am crazy. Guess what, he is still my friend. This is not life and death stuff.
 
#73
Greg, I am not surprised that you totally misread me.

Read again, and very carefully, what I said:

"The footers may be excellent, but this seems naked hyperbole. Even if Greg thinks that way, I'd rather live with a review that understates the improvement for the sake of sheer credibility."

Let me analyze for you:

a) I conceded that the footers may indeed be excellent. I have not stated an opinion about them since I have not heard them
b) to a reader who has not heard them (and that is most of us) your statement that the footers makes such a difference as if you have a doubly expensive system with them in it, is bound to seem naked hyperbole, regardless if you think it is true or not
c) even if you think that your statement is true, you should not have expressed it that way, because it is in fact so unbelievable to anyone who has not heard the footers that it just cannot possibly come across as credible -- even if it were true!
d) because the statement as it is written is not credible, regardless if it is true or not, for the product's sake you should never have made such a strong statement.

Why do I say for the product's sake? Because evidently it backfired. And let me repeat: if you think that the reaction at WBF to your review is particularly nasty, I have news for you: WBF is not a particularly nasty place, and if you got the reaction that you did get here, you will get the same reaction from readers elsewhere. Few people, other than those who may have heard them, will take the footers seriously after such a review.
I think we get it Al, these are your opinions having little or no facts or first-hand experience to support them. And I for one don't agree with any of your points. Who cares?

I'd rather hear from people who've experienced something and draw my own conclusions than have numerous threads derailed like this one was with opinions that have little or no relevancy.

Perhaps there are readers who have relevant questions but fail to engage because of behavior like this.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
4,118
130
63
Greater Boston
#74
It has always seemed to me that if you want to be a reviewer in the internet age or a participant in audio as well as other hobby related forums, you need to have a thick skin. I have already opined about how I felt my one set of footers improved the sound of my room. A friend already told me I am crazy. Guess what, he is still my friend. This is not life and death stuff.
Yes, but your post was a refreshing read. You did not use any hyperbole, or said anything that could come across as hyperbole. That's the difference.
 
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Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
4,118
130
63
Greater Boston
#75
You just don't get it, do you? Deflecting and saying you're not claiming that they don't sound like I (and virtually everyone else,) say they do is the BASIS OF YOUR POST. I've not misread, misinterpreted, or have any illusions about what you meant with your post. Your distractions and deflections here are only that.
Yes, you misread as I have proven. You are just too proud to admit it.

So, you should just shut the F*** up .
You just graciously made the point for me that others have made about you. Thank you.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
5,570
316
83
Beverly Hills, CA
#76
. . .

c) even if you think that your statement is true, you should not have expressed it that way, because it is in fact so unbelievable to anyone who has not heard the footers that it just cannot possibly come across as credible -- even if it were true!

d) because the statement as it is written is not credible, regardless if it is true or not, for the product's sake you should never have made such a strong statement.

. . .
I understand where you are coming from, Al, but c) and d), above, are unfair.

I think it is fair to expect that someone who has auditioned a product and who reports a 2X to 3X increase in sound quality/believablility to be aware of the strong likelihood that people who have not heard the product will find the reported claim to be hyperbole.

But I think you go too far in suggesting that the auditioner should decline to report what he/she believes to be his honest appraisal. Skepticism should be expected, but self-censorship should not be demanded.

Point d) is fatally infused with the flaw in c).
 
Likes: Bodhi
#77
To all - below is what I consider condescending, personal attacks. Please note, I criticized Greg's review only (not his intellect, system, or person) and in a very diplomatic way and even highlighted the thoughtful components of its description. I yet still after all of this, INVITED HIM INTO MY HOUSE. I have a dozen people who have relayed the exact same thing to me privately.

But enough is enough, unfortunately another Peter B has joined the forum. I'm officially out now and strongly considering cancelling my account. I can't hang with the "wheat" apparently and no nothing about audio because of my "lack of experience with such caliber systems"

I also strongly disagree how the reviewer has been supported by manufacturers in this thread which lowers his credibility. I feel reviews should be absolutely isolated from interested parties in order to retain objectivity. The blurring of the lines makes me (and others) uneasy.

KeithR



























PS. Pot calling kettle on the last one.
Dude, the only one blurring ANY lines is you... You need to learn how to debate, or else just give it up... Sorry, but the facts are what they are...nothing more...
 
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DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2010
6,070
100
63
La Jolla, Calif USA
#78
Quick question for Damon...in all sincerity do you believe that the CS footers ( or any footer or tweek for that matter, so that we are not just zeroing in on the particular product that is the subject of this thread) can bring about a bigger increase in SQ than any of the speakers that you manufacture? (...up to and including your flagship product; which unless I am mistaken retails for $295,000- . just shy of the number ($300K) that Greg Weaver used as an example!)
 
#79
Quick question for Damon...in all sincerity do you believe that the CS footers ( or any footer or tweek for that matter, so that we are not just zeroing in on the particular product that is the subject of this thread) can bring about a bigger increase in SQ than any of the speakers that you manufacture? (...up to and including your flagship product; which unless I am mistaken retails for $295,000- . just shy of the number ($300K) that Greg Weaver used as an example!)
Just for the record, it was not me who brought up that speaker, it was KeithR in his post on the 10th, #5. And though it launched at $295K, it is now priced at a rounded out $300K.
 
#80
Yes, you misread as I have proven. You are just too proud to admit it.



You just graciously made the point for me that others have made about you. Thank you.
...as you've proven... ? Dude, why don't you revert to something equally as unsubstantiated and foolish as, "Oh yeah, well, my dad could take your dad!" You really need to understand debate and persuasive writing...
 

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